# Ah honest attempt to 'see the other side' by a Progressive **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 24, 2020, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354 "2020-11-24T15:08:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/383 "2020-12-11T22:43:19Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > . Simply citing an opinion piece and saying “this says you’re wrong” is not really a debate. > > If you don’[t want to debate anonymous people, what are you doing here? Uh, acknowledging the 21s century. Forums really are not just opinions, there is an audience that one is also informing about an issue in a message board that is geared against ignorance. Facts and more expert opinions should be looked at, not frowned upon. It would be as if that scene in Annie Hall is not happening many times in real life thanks to the internet, better opinions or facts are what I agree with, forgive me for assuming others would not realize that what I cite are opinions and facts (with better grammar 🙂 ) that me as poster in this message board agrees with. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/vTSmbMm7MDg/maxresdefault.jpg "Annie Hall (3/12) Movie CLIP - If Life Were Only Like This (1977) HD") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTSmbMm7MDg&t=107) ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/384 "2020-12-11T23:13:31Z")
No one says “both sides do it” in real life in order to convey that meaning. It’s to massage into the infosphere a nihlilistic message of ambient guilt and cynicism. Those messages always move towards antidemocracy and authoritarianism, while claiming “centerness”. If you’re not doing it from the “center” you’re not doing it right. Right? Both sides do it is willfully ignorant of the assymetric war between Rs and Ds. This war is out in the open and public and inarguable. To acknowledge it is to act like an adult. But that is beyond many of us now. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/385 "2020-12-11T23:20:23Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > And if democrats could have prevented trump with an equal both oppositely aligned level of corruption. They would have done it. Very few would say "hey our guys, pretty bad, lets give this one to the other side. Saying this over and over doesn’t make it true. Sometimes one side really is worse than the other. That really happens in history. You’ve presented nothing that suggests otherwise - only your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/386 "2020-12-11T23:27:38Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > The argument seems to be that when your side does it its OK because you’re on the side of the angels Nooooo…the argument is that when, on a scale of 1 to 10, one side is a “2” and the other side is a “17”, your weak “Both sides do it!!” excuse sounds rather silly if you don’t _immediately_ add “but of course our side is MUCH worse!”. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2020, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/387 "2020-12-12T00:22:22Z")
It’s that having a “side” is to be guilty of ambient corruption. Only those who have no side can be pure. Having no side means white patriarchy takes all pushes in society, and yes, even close calls. So it’s not having a side in a kind of limited specific way. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/389 "2020-12-12T21:18:10Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Who are you making “both sides do it” arguments in defense of? > > And why? What do _you_ think you are saying when you say that “both sides do it”? I would defend either side but only one side is under constant attack on this site. Only one side claims to be coming to the fight with clean hands. I think I am saying that the extreme elements of both sides suck and both sides should take the more extreme elements of their side and put them at the kiddy table and ignore their tantrums for the sake of your country ignore them. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > forgive me for assuming others would not realize that what I cite are opinions and facts You are effectively citing the columbia professor. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Saying this over and over doesn’t make it true. I believe this is the first time I’ve said it. And I think I have agreed with everyone that says that the right is worse than the left… right now. but there is plenty of shittiness on the left. Especially eh extreme left. And yes that is my opinion. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > “but of course our side is MUCH worse!”. Which side is “our side”? I don’t really think I have a side in this debate. I feel like I am pretty solidly in the “pox on both your houses” category. Sure I vote democratic but I think there are elements of the left the party would be better off ignoring and seating at a kiddy table in a corner of the tent only to trot them out around election time so that the other extremists will realize that there is really only one tent where they can ever have any sort of seat at all. > [@drad\_dog](#): > > It’s that having a “side” is to be guilty of ambient corruption. Only those who have no side can be pure. > > Having no side means white patriarchy takes all pushes in society, and yes, even close calls. So it’s not having a side in a kind of limited specific way. So this is about raice? Pffft! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2020, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/390 "2020-12-12T21:26:39Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > You are effectively citing the columbia professor. If you want to make a silly argument and miss the point of the joke. The point stands, not all opinions made to impress a date of a Columbia Professor are impressive or good when the horse’s mouth or an expert is available. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2020, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/391 "2020-12-12T21:48:13Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > I believe this is the first time I’ve said it. And I think I have agreed with everyone that says that the right is worse than the left… right now. but there is plenty of shittiness on the left. Especially eh extreme left. And yes that is my opinion. This is different than what you said before. What you said before was that Democrats would tolerate or support just as much corruption as Trump in order to defeat him. That’s a baseless statement. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/392 "2020-12-13T02:56:46Z")
> [@MrMrmrmr](#): > > Ok, but you can’t argue that my indefensible worldview has not lead to great results. > Is that not something to respect? My worldview, based on my personal experience is that one should buy a lottery ticket, and then sit back and reap the rewards of a 7 figure win. This is clearly the best way to plan for retirement. Worked for me! Other people are just bad planners if they don’t follow my lead. This is not great reasoning, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/393 "2020-12-13T02:59:51Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > And if democrats could have prevented trump with an equal both oppositely aligned level of corruption. They would have done it. Very few would say "hey our guys, pretty bad, lets give this one to the other side. This is … odd. It’s basically - “Those other guys are just as bad, because I think they would be just as corrupt if they had a chance.” This is a bankrupt argument. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/394 "2020-12-13T16:29:28Z")
As long as they diversify their portfolio by buying both PowerBall _and_ MegaMillions tickets. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/395 "2020-12-14T14:43:57Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > And if democrats could have prevented trump with an equal both oppositely aligned level of corruption. They would have done it. Very few would say "hey our guys, pretty bad, lets give this one to the other side. So if democrats could have come up with someone worse than Trump, more corrupt than Trump, they would have won. You might be right. Might have been able to swing some GOP votes. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/396 "2020-12-14T17:26:59Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > If you want to make a silly argument and miss the point of the joke. The point stands, not all opinions made to impress a date of a Columbia Professor are impressive or good when the horse’s mouth or an expert is available The columbia professor is an expert. In fact he is the sort of expert you are relying on to determine how asians feel about this, when the majority of asians are telling you you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/397 "2020-12-14T17:36:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is different than what you said before. What you said before was that Democrats would tolerate or support just as much corruption as Trump in order to defeat him. That’s a baseless statement. How do you feel about Democratic support for Bill Clinton in the wake of all the sexual harassment allegations? > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > It’s basically - “Those other guys are just as bad, because I think they would be just as corrupt if they had a chance.” > > This is a bankrupt argument. So Democrats would have stayed home or voted for trump if a far left candidate with similarly sketchy activity was running against trump? That seems… unlikely. Politics is partisan and the people that voted for trump don’t have to lurve everything about him to vote for him over biden. > [@enipla](#): > > So if democrats could have come up with someone worse than Trump, more corrupt than Trump, they would have won. You might be right. Might have been able to swing some GOP votes. No, I’m saying that politics is partisan. Democrats will forgive their candidate for things they would crucify the other side’s candidate for and vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/398 "2020-12-14T17:44:02Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > How do you feel about Democratic support for Bill Clinton in the wake of all the sexual harassment allegations? Quit changing the subject (the awful toleration of sexual harassment/assault/etc. is abominable from both parties, and has only recently started to change for the better, but only with the Democrats for now – but that’s a different topic). What you said before was that Democrats would tolerate or support just as much corruption as Trump in order to defeat him. That’s a baseless statement. Do you stand by this baseless statement? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/399 "2020-12-14T17:45:06Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Democrats will forgive their candidate for things they would crucify the other side’s candidate for and vice versa. Democrats wouldn’t nominate someone as corrupt as Trump. You’ve presented nothing to suggest otherwise – just baseless assertions that Democrats are just as bad. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/400 "2020-12-14T17:47:23Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > No, I’m saying that politics is partisan. Democrats will forgive their candidate for things they would crucify the other side’s candidate for and vice versa. This depends very heavily on the things being done, to such a degree that I discard your statement as being false, disingenuous, _and_ slander. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/401 "2020-12-14T17:49:56Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > The columbia professor is an expert. In fact he is the sort of expert you are relying on to determine how asians feel about this, when the majority of asians are telling you you are wrong. Not impressive when using once again the appeal to popularity fallacy. Opinions that miss a lot of nuance or evidence get to be dismissed by experts, not just for logical reasons, but because otherwise the conservatives in the USA get the idea that a guy that just follows his gut should be a great leader. It was not a good idea. To have a great nation one has to look at what experts report, [not the uneducated opinion of conservative groups or leaders that usually get it wrong.](https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-ap-fact-check-joe-biden-donald-trump-science-fb1a68703b6ca8368f0dec0a74fdd6c5) ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/402 "2020-12-14T18:05:46Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > So Democrats would have stayed home or voted for trump if a far left candidate with similarly sketchy activity was running against trump? > > That seems… unlikely. It’s unlikely because there is no such person. They’d have to have views that are acceptable to the primary voters, which eliminates “far left” for the Democrats but not “fair right” for Republicans, and they would have to be at a minimum cleaner than Al Franken and Anthony Weiner. Democrats ostracized them. Trump was made President despite much worse. Fail on both counts. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/403 "2020-12-14T18:39:18Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > So Democrats would have stayed home or voted for trump if a far left candidate with similarly sketchy activity was running against trump? Presidential nominees don’t spring forth fully formed from the ether. They have to pass a primary first. Democrats wouldn’t vote for a candidate as corrupt as Trump in the general election, because that candidate would never have made it through the primaries in the first place. And you can tell that a candidate as corrupt as Trump wouldn’t make it through the Democratic primaries by the way we keep not nominating people as corrupt as Trump. When Republicans nominated Trump in 2016, we nominated Hillary Clinton. When the Republicans nominated Trump again in 2020, we - knowing full well at this point that corruption and venality were in no way barriers to election, and indeed seemed to be considered positive traits by a significant portion of the electorate - nominated Joe Biden. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354.md?page=21)