# Ah honest attempt to 'see the other side' by a Progressive **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 24, 2020, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354 "2020-11-24T15:08:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/121 "2020-11-26T09:57:23Z")
I can’t see a single thing in ‘stop worshipping whiteness’ that means ‘embrace your new black masters’. Sorry. Your default when asked to consider treating whites as not the top of the pile is to put someone else at the top instead, which potentially says a lot about your thought process that you may wish to examine. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/122 "2020-11-26T14:44:00Z")
That sounds like the very definition of ‘simple, but not easy.’ While this study was done 17 years ago, I think it’s both clean _and_ extremely likely to yield the same results if it were done again today: > **[w9873.pdf](https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w9873/w9873.pdf)** > > 334.56 KB > We perform a field experiment to measure racial discrimination in the labor market. We respond with fictitious resumes to help-wanted ads in Boston and Chicago newspapers. To manipulate perception of race, each resume is assigned either a very African American sounding name or a very White sounding name. The results show significant discrimination against African-American names: White names receive 50 percent more callbacks for interviews. We also find that race affects the benefits of a better resume. For White names, a higher quality resume elicits 30 percent more callbacks whereas for African Americans, it elicits a far smaller increase. Applicants living in better neighborhoods receive more callbacks but, interestingly, this effect does not differ by race. The amount of discrimination is uniform across occupations and industries. Federal contractors and employers who list “Equal Opportunity Employer” in their ad discriminate as much as other employers. We find little evidence that our results are driven by employers inferring something other than race, such as social class, from the names. These results suggest that racial discrimination is still a prominent feature of the labor market. Think about the cascading impacts of this one rather small study. It’s profound. And this was _on paper._ What happens when they see your dark skin in person ? It’s also quite likely that where any smoldering ember of bigotry persists, there’s an additive quality to it. In other words, if you have enough lingering bigotry in the employees of a company then tolerance of bigotry can be a result, leading – for example – to blatantly discriminatory hiring practices that _no individual_ employee of that company would support. I’ve long ago also come to believe that bigotry is pretty binary: you’re either a bigot or you’re not. I tend to doubt that people who _really_ don’t like blacks are ‘swell and dandy’ with Jews, LGBTQ, Muslims, etc., etc. They may pick their favorite cause célèbre – sure. But I suspect they’re generally sitting on a pretty deep bench of intolerance. Which is ridiculously exploitable, and has no end of deleterious societal effects. So I agree that being generally supportive of BLM really doesn’t equate to prostrating oneself before Our New Black Overlords. It’s nowhere near that simple and not even remotely that dramatic. But it may imply that, societally, there _does_ have to be _some_ measure of anti-racism in our institutions and in our public policies … in an effort to course correct a bit, and to try to get to that smoldering and persistent element that – like cockroaches – tends to scatter when the lights come on. ---
**Author:** ![agzem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@agzem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agzem)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/123 "2020-11-26T14:45:12Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Since democrats DID condemn it Citation needed. I’m not seeing it. > **[Obama won’t comment on Gosnell case](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2013/04/15/obama-wont-comment-on-gosnell-case/)** > > President Obama will not comment on the trial of Pennsylvania abortion doctor Kermit Gosnell because the trial is ongoing. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/124 "2020-11-26T14:59:26Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Class warfare is alien to me. I don’t hate people based on how much money they do or don’t make. I don’t care if your wealth is inherited or if you earned it. What you have is irrelevant to me, unless you stole it, extorted it, or have it because government carved out a special place for you. You’ve written a lot of great stuff. I’m not sure how _much_ of it I’ll be able to get into, but I want to focus on this piece, if I may. I don’t think their contribution to society ends with their Great Idea, even if it creates lots of jobs. And I strongly suspect that they – _as a cohort_ – pay next to no taxes, like Donald Trump. I started a thread about this subject that I’d invite you to peruse: > [@Do the rich pay their fair share?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/921817): > > I did a quick search and found very little specifically about this. In association with the latest story about DJT’s tax returns, I heard a statistic that the wealthiest Americans pay an average of 24% in Federal Income Tax. I presume they’re talking about [Effective Tax Rate](https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/taxes/what-is-the-effective-tax-rate-15102865). But Effective Tax Rate reminds me of an old joke in medicine: The surgery was a complete success, but the patient died. Sometimes, our definitions differ from the definitions used by others. According to [Pew Research](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/10/06/a-closer-look-at-who-does-and-doesnt-pay-u-s-income-tax/): … Why is _their_ wealth _any_ of _my_ business ? Because I strongly suspect that middle class America – as an unwitting part of The Deal To Which Not One Single Solitary American Knowingly Consented – is subsidizing the snot out of the wealthiest, in an effort to get the level of government that, as a nation, we tend to support. It’s not really quite so much class _warfare,_ IMHO, and clandestine class _welfare._ It’s also one of those great ironies about the term ‘redistribution of wealth.’ Both sides do it. The left tends to push it downward, while the right tends to push it upward. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/125 "2020-11-26T15:02:31Z")
If a citation is provided where a prominent Democrat _did_ openly condemn Gosnell (back to the No True Scotsman Fallacy, are we ?), will you reply that HR Clinton didn’t ? Or is this Argument of the Beard ? How many, **and which** Democrats needed to come out strongly against … WTH we’re talking about … before your test is satisfied ? It might save time. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/126 "2020-11-26T15:14:49Z")
You actually have a problem with a sitting President not commenting on an ongoing case because it might influence the outcome? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/127 "2020-11-26T15:17:11Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > How many, **and which** Democrats needed to come out strongly against … WTH we’re talking about … before your test is satisfied ? > > It might save time. I doubt that very much-See post #88. ---
**Author:** ![agzem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@agzem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agzem)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/128 "2020-11-26T15:30:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You actually have a problem with a sitting President not commenting on an ongoing case because it might influence the outcome? Obama never seemed to have a problem doing that with other cases. Did Obama make a statement AFTER the guilty verdict? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/129 "2020-11-26T15:32:29Z")
> [@agzem](#): > > Obama never seemed to have a problem doing that with other cases. What “other cases”? ---
**Author:** ![agzem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@agzem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agzem)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/130 "2020-11-26T15:42:16Z")
Here’s one of Obama’s worst examples where his interference made it harder to get a conviction: > **[Obama exerted 'unlawful command influence' in speaking on military sexual...](https://www.politico.com/blogs/politico44/2013/06/obama-exerted-unlawful-command-influence-in-speaking-on-military-sexual-assault-judge-says-166288)** > > Even if convicted, two defendants can't be punitively discharged Of course he also interfered in the Hillary Clinton email investigation: > **[Obama’s Comments About Clinton’s Emails Rankle Some in the F.B.I. (Published...](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/17/us/politics/obamas-comments-on-clinton-emails-collide-with-fbi-inquiry.html)** > > Angered by a “60 Minutes” interview downplaying Hillary Clinton’s use of a personal account, some F.B.I. officials say they saw a president trying, not for the first time, to sway an investigation. Now that we have settled that can you show me where Obama condemned Gosnell after the guilty verdict. If not, then why do you think he chose to remain silent? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/131 "2020-11-26T15:55:51Z")
> [@agzem](#): > > Now that we have settled that can you show me where Obama condemned Gosnell after the guilty verdict. If not, then why do you think he chose to remain silent? Not until you expose all the hoops we are required to jump through to satisfy you, otherwise this is just a big waste of time on our part with no end in sight. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/132 "2020-11-26T15:59:33Z")
> [@CoconutPete](#): > > He literally said America needs to repent for worshipping whiteness whatever that means. I have two white children. How am I to interpret that other than my white children are bad and need to be dragged down a peg or two, you tell me. Good grief. How on earth are you getting that out of it? Do you think people should be worshipping your children? Do you think they should be doing so specifically because they are white? ---
**Author:** ![agzem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@agzem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agzem)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/133 "2020-11-26T16:11:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not until you expose all the hoops we are required to jump through to satisfy you, otherwise this is just a big waste of time on our part with no end in sight. Couldn’t find any huh? Why do you suppose Democrats are so afraid of offending the abortion industry lobbyists? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/134 "2020-11-26T16:22:05Z")
Back to the topic, if we may? What would it take, specifically, for you to consider getting together with Democrats/Progressives in the spirit of compromise? ---
**Author:** ![agzem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@agzem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agzem)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/135 "2020-11-26T16:37:24Z")
First it would be a good to establish that everybody agrees that snipping the spines of babies after they are born is wrong. Once everybody agrees to that then we can use that as a starting point. Until then I’m not sure we can trust that Democrats are serious about compromise or finding common ground. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/136 "2020-11-26T16:38:12Z")
Maybe you could start a new thread just for that topic. Seems it might be a good place to invoke a poll. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/137 "2020-11-26T16:38:52Z")
> [@agzem](#): > > First it would be a good to establish that everybody agrees that snipping the spines of babies after they are born is wrong. Once everybody agrees to that then we can use that as a starting point. Until then I’m not sure we can trust that Democrats are serious about compromise or finding common ground. I’m sure you have no end of “starting points” to throw out there, but the question remains: Do you have an actual “ending point”? ---
**Author:** ![agzem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@agzem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agzem)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/138 "2020-11-26T16:46:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you have an actual “ending point”? That’s a question for both sides to answer isn’t it? Is what Gosnell did the “end point” for the other side? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/139 "2020-11-26T16:48:03Z")
> [@agzem](#): > > That’s a question for both sides to answer isn’t it? No, it isn’t. I asked the question of you, so it is very clearly a question for you to answer. What is your answer? ---
**Author:** ![agzem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@agzem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agzem)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/140 "2020-11-26T16:49:52Z")
This is not a jury trial. But you are free to provide your answer. Do you condemn what Gosnell did? I do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354.md?page=8)