# Ah honest attempt to 'see the other side' by a Progressive **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 24, 2020, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354 "2020-11-24T15:08:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/141 "2020-11-26T16:51:51Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Good grief. How on earth are you getting that out of it? I’m wondering the same thing. Is “worshipping whiteness” something desirable? ---
**Author:** ![CoconutPete](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coconutpete/32/5294_2.png) [@CoconutPete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoconutPete)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/142 "2020-11-26T18:05:01Z")
I want to know what his idea of repentance for worshipping whiteness is, reparations, something else, I’d like to hear the guy clarify his comments on exactly what the repentance would be, cause it just sounds like thinly veiled language calling for revenge to me. Even if thats not what he means, politicians should not use all this racially divisive language, identity politics, it just divides people further, in my opinion anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/143 "2020-11-26T18:09:46Z")
So, what exactly _is_ your position on the Worshipping of Whiteness-For, or against? ---
**Author:** ![CoconutPete](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coconutpete/32/5294_2.png) [@CoconutPete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoconutPete)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/144 "2020-11-26T18:17:30Z")
What constitutes worshipping whiteness? ---
**Author:** ![Jumpbass](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jumpbass/32/147_2.png) [@Jumpbass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jumpbass)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/145 "2020-11-26T18:17:49Z")
Boy howdy, this thread sure has jumped the tracks. What a mess. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/146 "2020-11-26T19:28:45Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > I don’t think their contribution to society ends with their Great Idea, even if it creates lots of jobs. > > And I strongly suspect that they – _as a cohort_ – pay next to no taxes, like Donald Trump. Nope. In 2017, billionaires in America paid 23% of their income in federal, state, and local taxes. The top 1% paid 26.8% of their income in tax - by far the highest tax rate of any group. In comparison, the upper middle class - the top 25% to 10% of taxpayers - paid only 11.5% effective taxes. In 2017, the top 1% in America paid 38% of all federal income taxes. If you include the top 5% it’s almost 60% of total federal income taxes, and if you go down to the top 10% you get about 70%. The bottom 50% of all American taxpayers paid only 3.11% of all federal income taxes. The U.S. tax code is highly progressive - more so than many other countries that rely on VAT taxes more for revenue. Or looked at another way, the top 1% in America paid more in taxes than the bottom 90% of all taxpayers. . Cite: > **[Summary of the Latest Federal Income Tax Data, 2020 Update](https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/summary-of-the-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2020-update/)** > > The top 1 percent of taxpayers pay a 26.8 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than six times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (4.0 percent). This progressivity is also why any large tax cuts will necessarily impact the rich more. For example, the bottom 50% of taxpayers only paid about $50 billion in federal income taxes in 2017, whereas the top 50% paid about 1.5 trillion. Clearly, if you want say a $200 billion tax cut, you would have to do it mainly through the top 50%, because you could reduce taxes to zero for the bottom 50% and it would only amount to a $50 billion cut. . ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/147 "2020-11-26T20:01:52Z")
But nothing in your answer contradicts the point of my thread – about “Effective” vs. “Real” tax rates. The numbers you’re using are based on “Effective” tax rate – determined _after_ deductions are taken (ie, Adjusted Gross Income, or “AGI”). As I said in that thread: > a very wealthy person could earn a billion dollars, and – after extensive deductions – have a taxable income of a million dollars. > Given a Federal Income Tax liability of, say, $100,000: > [taxes paid] / [adjusted gross income] = 10.000% > [taxes paid] / [TOTAL gross income] = 0.010% Though [said with a wry smile] your post _did_ totally support my premise in that other thread 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/148 "2020-11-26T20:19:15Z")
We can slice and dice the numbers in lots of ways to make political points, but you can’t get around the fact that the top 1% pay 38% of all federal income taxes. Then there are state and local taxes. New York City’s too 1% pay 42% of all taxes collected by the city. New York state also has an 8.8% top marginal state tax. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/149 "2020-11-26T20:26:38Z")
To anyone looking to understand the divide, I suggest reading Jonathan Haidt’s “The Righteous Mind” or at least google a bit about Moral Foundations Theory. His central thesis is that there are 5 basic moral continuums (though he has recently added a sixth - Liberty vs Oppression) that consist of Care vs Harm, Fairness vs Cheating, Loyalty vs Betrayal, Authority vs Subversion, and Sanctity vs Degradation. While liberals care most about Care and Fairness, conservatives tend to value the last three more (though they do value the first two as well). Most Democratic messaging tends toward addressing the first two, while effective Trumpian messaging tends towards the latter. I read an incredible white paper about how an argument made against Trump made in terms of Loyalty had about a 19% edge in turning people against Trump vs an argument framed in terms of Fairness. I sent his research to every democratic candidate. I’ve only seen the findings employed by The Lincoln Project, who likely are just emphasizing the latter three values because they are naturally conservative. Another book I suggest is “White Working Class: Overcoming Class Cluelessness in America,” by Joan Williams (or at least read her HBR article [What So Many People Don’t Get About the U.S. Working Class](https://hbr.org/2016/11/what-so-many-people-dont-get-about-the-u-s-working-class)). I’ll try and summarize later when I get a chance. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/150 "2020-11-26T20:31:59Z")
> [@CoconutPete](#): > > Yeah? But how is it not black supremacist in nature? How is this so difficult for you? It’s about equality. Nobody is supreme over anybody else just because they were born with this or than skin color that was beyond their control. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/151 "2020-11-26T20:34:59Z")
Really? Let’s go step by step. Who or what kind of thing can one worship? Probably someone/thing so awesome, it’s better than everyone/thing else. Someone/thing pretty supreme, yes? ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/152 "2020-11-26T20:42:03Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > We can slice and dice the numbers in lots of ways to make political points, but you can’t get around the fact that the top 1% pay 38% of all federal income taxes. But if they make – say – 90% of all the money, then the 38% number is less than unimpressive. I don’t think it’s “making political points” to determine whether, and – if so – by how much – the wealthiest Americans are being supported by the rest of us. YMMV, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/153 "2020-11-26T20:48:07Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > Who or what kind of thing can one worship? Probably someone/thing so awesome, it’s better than everyone/thing else. Someone/thing pretty supreme, yes So this message should be aimed at white supremacists rather than “America”, which can be institutionally racist, but as it doesn’t have a conscience, it cannot “repent”, only the individuals therein. People who do not worship whiteness do not need to repent for something they didn’t do. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/154 "2020-11-26T20:52:48Z")
America, as a whole, need to stamp out white supremacy together. To help our friends and family and neighbors understand what it is and how it can be undone. To be able to recognize it in the first place. It’s so baked into society that many people support it with out even realizing what it is or what it entails. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/155 "2020-11-26T22:43:28Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > But if they make – say – 90% of all the money, then the 38% number is less than unimpressive. They don’t make anything like that. In fact, the top 1% of earners account for about 21% of income, but pay 38.5% of federal income taxes. See the cite I already posted. I think one common misconception on the left is that they think the wealthy have a huge percentage of the nation’s wealth and income. I have corrected people repeatedly on this board who have made crazy claims such as the top 1% make over 90% of the money or have over 90% of the wealth in America. It’s not even remotely close to being true. You could take every nickel, every stock, every house that American billionaires have, and you couldn’t fund the federal government for a year. And then your country would be economically devastated because the investor class would either flee or no longer exist. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/156 "2020-11-26T22:46:13Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > America, as a whole, need to stamp out white supremacy together. To help our friends and family and neighbors understand what it is and how it can be undone. Okay, I’ll play: What exactly is it, and how can it be undone? I’d like specifics, and not platitudes. Because it seems to me that so far all the talk of ‘anti-racism’ has succeeded mostly in helpjng the rise of Trump and his most crazy followers. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/157 "2020-11-26T22:49:57Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > They don’t make anything like that. In fact, the top 1% of earners account for about 21% of income, but pay 38.5% of federal income taxes. See the cite I already posted. That still sounds like numbers based on Adjusted Gross Income. It virtually has to be. I’m going to stick with my own point: I’d like to know a very simple metric by decile of _total_ income: [total federal income tax $ paid] / [**total** dollars made] I’d like to see that information. I suspect others might like to see it, too. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/158 "2020-11-26T23:06:57Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > That still sounds like numbers based on Adjusted Gross Income. It virtually has to be. > > I’m going to stick with my own point: I’d like to know a very simple metric by decile of _total_ income: > > [total federal income tax $ paid] / [**total** dollars made] > > I’d like to see that information. I suspect others might like to see it, too. Go nuts. I’m not sure why I am required to do the research you want to see. It’s easy enough to Google. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/159 "2020-11-26T23:13:56Z")
No. No, it isn’t. Only AGI data is available. I’ve asked for years. Nobody has ever found anything other. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/160 "2020-11-26T23:15:20Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > While liberals care most about Care and Fairness Fairness gets really complicated, because people differ as to what is fair. Is it fair for everyone to pay the same percentage of their income in taxes? Is it fair for everyone to have enough left to live on after they pay their taxes? Is it fair for everyone to have the same access to college or to work, based on their abilities at the moment of application? Is it fair to take into account that not everyone had the same chance to develop such abilities before the moment of application? Is it fair to pay a basketball player more than a kindergarten teacher? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354.md?page=9)