# Ah honest attempt to 'see the other side' by a Progressive **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 24, 2020, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354 "2020-11-24T15:08:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/161 "2020-11-27T03:15:04Z")
> [@Jumpbass](#): > > Boy howdy, this thread sure has jumped the tracks. What a mess. How so? It appears to me we are engaged in the very pursuit described in the OP ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/162 "2020-11-27T03:32:36Z")
Yeah. It’s not OUR fault that the Right doesn’t have a logical or reality-recognizing bone in their collective body… ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/163 "2020-11-27T03:45:46Z")
Fairness is also a function of whether you are a member of the ingroup or outgroup. I remember a few Thanksgivings ago, someone on here was asking for the best arguments against Trump. One of the first points at the top of a lot of many lists was “Puts kid in cages.” What they didn’t realize is that Trumpers don’t care because, illegal immigrants aren’t a member of their ingroup. In fact, in the eyes of a Trump supporter, it’s the illegal immigrants that aren’t playing “fair.” ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/164 "2020-11-27T03:59:35Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Fairness is also a function of whether you are a member of the ingroup or outgroup. That’s not the kind of thing I meant, though. I meant that there are different types of framework for deciding what’s fair; not that people are applying the same framework differently to different people (though I agree that also sometimes happens.) If progressives actually do want to make ‘an honest attempt to see the other side’, and not just to snarl at them, it’s necessary to recognize the existence of those different frameworks. That doesn’t mean to agree with them; but to be able to see them. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/165 "2020-11-27T06:39:19Z")
It seems like Sam has brought a pretty good cite from a trusted source. It should be up to you to counter. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/166 "2020-11-27T06:41:04Z")
Yeah. I’m in favor of a progressive tax but I cringe when people use “fair share”. The phrase has too much baggage and is ambiguous. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/167 "2020-11-27T13:46:21Z")
I don’t need to counter. The cite Sam offered up speaks only in terms of Adjusted Gross Income. _His_ cite makes _my_ point. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/168 "2020-11-27T13:52:20Z")
Let me quote the preface to the statistics _from_ the cite that Sam provided: > The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) has released data on [individual income tax](https://taxfoundation.org/tax-basics/individual-income-tax/)es for tax year 2017, showing the number of taxpayers, **adjusted gross income** , and income tax shares by income percentiles [bolding mine] That sets the stage: we’re **only** going to be talking about AGI. That’s why I said that the particular statistic from Sam’s cite – > The share of reported income earned by the top 1 percent of taxpayers rose to 21 percent **Has** to be talking about AGI. It’s the way _his_ source framed their bullet points. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/169 "2020-11-27T14:43:26Z")
A couple other points worth making on the income tax thing: I just checked the _[source data](https://files.taxfoundation.org/20200224173906/Summary-of-the-Latest-Federal-Income-Tax-Data-February-2020-Update.xlsx)_ from Sam’s cite. It’s all AGI (, too). If the wealthiest Americans were really paying – in terms that _should_ matter to _all_ of us (ie, total taxes paid / total dollars made) – as much as we’re led to believe they’re paying … we’d have a flat tax tomorrow. I don’t think images like this, or the revelation that DJT paid $750 in Federal Income Taxes two years in a row, should lead us to believe that there is **not** a significant difference between total income and AGI – that is: I think we’re safe in concluding that the wealthiest Americans have deductions that would boggle our minds. And probably pay **astoundingly** less in Federal Income Tax than we are led to believe they do. [![](https://tax.unc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/trumptaxes.jpg) ](https://tax.unc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/trumptaxes.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/170 "2020-11-27T16:00:25Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > …why would someone be a Trumper? Anatomy/physiology [Biology and political orientation - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_political_orientation#:~:text=Liberals%20have%20larger%20volume%20of,ambiguous%20facial%20expressions%20as%20threatening) and environment/culture. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/171 "2020-11-27T18:06:20Z")
I understood what you meant - was just offering another way in which concepts of fairness differ. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/172 "2020-11-27T18:28:59Z")
I think I understand what you’re trying to say and I could go along but I run into this: > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > If the wealthiest Americans were really paying – in terms that _should_ matter to _all_ of us (ie, total taxes paid / total dollars made) – as much as we’re led to believe they’re paying … we’d have a flat tax tomorrow. Your “led to believe” statement means (I think) that you don’t trust Sam’s source but you kind of hand-wave it away without giving me much reason to agree with your opinion. There’s a trope (possibly true) that rich people don’t pay any taxes. Anecdotally Trump illustrates it but whenever these discussions come up nobody can seem to prove it as a whole and the stats I’ve seen (like Sam’s) say otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/173 "2020-11-27T18:32:47Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > I understood what you meant - was just offering another way in which concepts of fairness differ It seems to me that you were describing a way in which the same concept of fairness was being applied differently to different people. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/174 "2020-11-27T18:58:53Z")
The problem is with the metric itself – Effective Tax Rate (ETR). ETR is defined as: [total paid in Federal Income Tax] divided by [Adjusted Gross Income] Take a look at IRS Form 1040: > **[f1040.pdf](https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040.pdf)** > > 156.98 KB To the overwhelming majority of Americans, “how much money did you make” points to Line 7b – total income. Right ? **That’s** how much money you made. But ETR uses as the denominator of its fraction … Line 8b – adjusted gross income. You’ll notice what happens on IRS Form 1040 to get from Line 7b **to** line 8b: > 8a Adjustments to income from Schedule 1, line 22 What does this line look like for the wealthiest 1% ? For the wealthiest 0.1% ? How do the Schedule 1 deductions available to a person with a total income of $200,000 per year compare with the deductions available to a person with a total income of $200,000,000 per year ? [see DJT’s tax returns in the picture for a graphic depiction] And why _in the world_ should we use Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) to “determine” whether or not our tax rates are truly progressive – that is: if the rich really _do_ pay their fair share ? Sam’s reference doesn’t prove anything. That’s exactly my point: I’ve **never** been able to find a true indicator of our progressive tax policy … of “tax fairness …” which most people would probably define as (again): [total federal income tax paid] divided by [total income] I found an interesting quote in [this document](https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/soi-a-inhi-id1907.pdf): > Reasons for Nontaxability > Taxpayers may have their tax liability reduced—possibly to > zero or beyond—in numerous ways. These include claiming > tax credits, which directly reduces an individual’s tax liability; > claiming various deductions, which reduces taxable income; > and receiving income that is excluded from the calculation of > taxable income. As I keep saying … I doubt Trump’s anything like an exception. I also think it’s ludicrous for the IRS to define “high income” as $200,000 or more. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/175 "2020-11-27T19:14:55Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > I also think it’s ludicrous for the IRS to define “high income” as $200,000 or more. The median household – not individual, household – income in the USA in 2019 was $68,703. [https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2020/demo/p60-270.html](https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2020/demo/p60-270.html) Which means half of all households – and considerably more than half of all individuals, since many households have more than one income provider – brought in less than that. So yes, I’d say that 200K for an individual is high income. It might well make sense to have another category, however, because there are people for whom 200K is pocket change. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/176 "2020-11-27T19:19:39Z")
I’m sorry. I wasn’t clear. In trying to understand tax fairness, it’s probably better to use breakdowns found in other sources, like …: Top 0.1% Top 1% Top 5% Between 5% & 10% Top 10% Between 10% & 25% Top 25% Between 25% & 50% Top 50% Bottom 50% I’m not saying $200k isn’t a good bit of money. I’m saying that I suspect that people making $200k don’t have nearly the access to deductions and avoidance strategies as people making orders of magnitude more money. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/177 "2020-11-27T19:25:28Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > There’s a trope (possibly true) that rich people don’t pay any taxes. It’s worth clarifying: I don’t know, so I can’t say that “rich people don’t pay any taxes.” I do see a problem with the metric used – a problem that may or may not be meaningful. And I do see a problem accepting as true that the Effective Tax Rate **really is** the most meaningful metric to use, largely because – again – it would indicate that the wealthiest Americans would be passionately in favor of a Flat Tax. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/178 "2020-11-27T19:30:20Z")
I was. My comment’s weren’t an addition to your examples of fairness, but another example of how the fairness issue is particularly complex. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/179 "2020-11-27T19:45:03Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > To the overwhelming majority of Americans, “how much money did you make” points to Line 7b – total income. Right ? **That’s** how much money you made. I also want to qualify that one statement (and then I’ll leave this issue alone on this thread): Form 1040 Line 7b doesn’t take into account Schedule 1 Part I “Additional Income,” which could be negative (ie, losses), and which could have a dramatic effect in reducing even Line 7b “total income,” and with numbers that are buried in no end of other IRS Forms associated with a given return. See what I mean ? > paid [divided by] made just shouldn’t be that difficult to get at. But it is. [out] ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354/180 "2020-11-27T20:17:45Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Good question. This time around I voted for Trump and I know what sort of arguments I find persuasive. For example climate change is a big one that many on the right like to downplay and why is that? I think in part it’s due to language and what the proposed solutions means in terms of relative national power and changes to standards and/or costs of living. One thing that I do notice from many on the right, they even ignore that they are falling for how the powerful interests are also controlling the misleading narrative that paints the efforts as being wasteful or that we will go to the stone age if we follow the best recommended solutions like from scientists like Richard Alley (Republican BTW, but I would not be surprised that he is an independent nowadays). [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/V7bmg65SS20/maxresdefault.jpg "How to Talk to an Ostrich: "We can't Afford Clean Energy"") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7bmg65SS20) > [@octopus](#): > > Where I personally have an issue with climate change, as an example, is that it’s presented as humans are responsible for all of it when it fact humans are responsible for some of it but it’s incalculable to what degree we are. And usually that bit comes from the same powerful interests and ignorant media from the right. > **[How do human CO2 emissions compare to natural CO2 emissions?](https://skepticalscience.com//human-co2-smaller-than-natural-emissions.htm)** > > \The CO2 that nature emits (from the ocean and vegetation) is balanced by natural absorptions (again by the ocean and vegetation). Therefore human emissions upset the natural balance, rising CO2 to levels not seen in at least 800,000 years. In... > **[What does past climate change tell us about global warming?](https://skepticalscience.com//climate-change-little-ice-age-medieval-warm-period-intermediate.htm)** > > Natural climate change in the past proves that climate is sensitive to an energy imbalance. If the planet accumulates heat, global temperatures will go up. Currently, CO2 is imposing an energy imbalance due to the enhanced greenhouse effect. Past... > To summarize, none of the mechanisms which facilitated previous climate change can explain the rapid rise in both CO2 and temperature observed over the past 150 years. However, human-released CO2 explains both! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-honest-attempt-to-see-the-other-side-by-a-progressive/926354.md?page=10)