# Ah, Just When You Thought It Couldn't Get More Absurd With Creationism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 20, 2004, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806 "2004-11-20T05:52:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806/1 "2004-11-20T05:52:54Z")
[It turns out the **National Park Service** (uh, huh, you know, the guys who get paid with our tax dollars to take care of the parks, etc.) is selling books saying that Noah’s flood formed the canyon!](http://www.time.com/time/columnist/jaroff/article/0,9565,783829,00.html?cnn=yes) :smack: > [@](#): > > And, oh yes, it was formed about 4,500 years ago, a direct consequence of Noah’s Flood. How’s that? Yes, this is the ill-informed premise of “Grand Canyon, a Different View,” a handsomely-illustrated volume also on sale at the bookstores. It includes the writings of creationists and creation scientists and was compiled by Tom Vail, who with his wife operates Canyon Ministries, conducting creationist-view tours of the canyon. But wait, it gets worse. > [@](#): > > But when Grand Canyon National Park superintendent Joe Alston attempted to block the sale of Vail’s book at canyon bookstores, he was overruled by NPS headquarters, which announced that a high-level policy review of the matter would be launched and a decision made by February, 2004. So far, no official decision has been announced. I’d quote more, but that’d be pushing the limits of what’s allowable. What was that Ford Prefect said? “Two million years. That’s all you’ve got, mankind.” I’m starting to hope he was right, and that this is the year the Earth gets demolished to make way for the hyperspace bypass. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806/2 "2004-11-20T06:47:06Z")
Isn’t this fairly old news? There’s been a lot more RECENT Creationism stupidity too. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806/3 "2004-11-20T06:55:08Z")
First I’ve heard of it. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806/4 "2004-11-20T07:02:25Z")
I don’t really see what the big deal is. It’s not like they are actually endorsing the viewpoint, it’s just a book being sold in the bookstore. Kind of like the books about ghosts that are sold at historical sites. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806/5 "2004-11-20T07:07:40Z")
> [@Talon Karrde](#): > > I don’t really see what the big deal is. It’s not like they are actually endorsing the viewpoint, it’s just a book being sold in the bookstore. Kind of like the books about ghosts that are sold at historical sites. Did you see this part > [@](#): > > Even more troubling, PEER charges that Grand Canyon National Park no longer offers an official estimate of the age of the canyon, and that the NPS has blocked publication of guidance intended for park rangers that reminds them there is no scientific basis for creationism. The group has been increasingly concerned about what it calls the Park Service’s “Faith-Based Parks” and the agency’s seeming indifference to the separation of church and state Among other moves, for example, NPS has allowed the placing of bronze plaques bearing Psalm verses at Grand Canyon overlooks. PEER Executive Director Jeff Ruch is indignant, “If the Bush Administration is using public resources for pandering to Christian fundamentalists, it should at least have the decency to tell the truth about it.” So they’re **not** trying to provide any education about the age of the Grand Canyon. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806/6 "2004-11-20T07:10:11Z")
Technically this wouldn’t be creationism as creationism deals with how the entire world and it’s species were created by god. What’s interesting is I learned in the early 90s in my geology 101 class that there is actually a staggering amount of geologic support for a flood of unimaginable proportions in the Eastern Mediterranean region during antiquity. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806/7 "2004-11-20T07:10:39Z")
Ah, I guess I didn’t. Well, I do see the big deal now. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806/8 "2004-11-20T07:33:43Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Technically this wouldn’t be creationism as creationism deals with how the entire world and it’s species were created by god. > > What’s interesting is I learned in the early 90s in my geology 101 class that there is actually a staggering amount of geologic support for a flood of unimaginable proportions in the Eastern Mediterranean region during antiquity. Yeah, but there’s _no_ evidence that it was global in nature, and given the figures given in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=286863), it’s pretty much impossible for a global flood of Biblical proportions to have occured. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806/9 "2004-11-20T07:34:53Z")
> [@](#): > > What’s interesting is I learned in the early 90s in my geology 101 class that there is actually a staggering amount of geologic support for a flood of unimaginable proportions in the Eastern Mediterranean region during antiquity. Did you see any evidence of a large boat holding a bunch of animals? How does a flood in the Eastern Mediterranean region relate to the Grand Canyon of the Colorado? ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806/10 "2004-11-20T07:48:16Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > What’s interesting is I learned in the early 90s in my geology 101 class that there is actually a staggering amount of geologic support for a flood of unimaginable proportions in the Eastern Mediterranean region during antiquity. Considering all the flood stories we have from the cultures of that area, it only makes sense and I’d be surprised if there were proof that there _ **wasn’t** _ some sort of cataclysmic flood in millennia past. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806/11 "2004-11-20T08:13:16Z")
Way to jump to conclusions guys. I wasn’t making any defense of creationism or Noah. I am a Christian, but my religion isn’t something I defend or argue about, religion is personal to me and I respect the opinions of others on their religious beliefs (or lack there of) so that’s why I try to keep my personal religious opinions to myself. I’m just saying it was interesting that the great flood myth (which also has presence, as mentioned, in virtually EVERY major cultural tradition of that area) has a strong root in science. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806/12 "2004-11-20T08:14:24Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Yeah, but there’s _no_ evidence that it was global in nature, and given the figures given in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=286863), it’s pretty much impossible for a global flood of Biblical proportions to have occured. Is there some part of “in the Eastern Mediterranean region” that you didn’t understand? Do I need to break it down word for word and then explain how the word’s relate together in a sentence? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806/13 "2004-11-20T08:26:48Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Is there some part of “in the Eastern Mediterranean region” that you didn’t understand? Do I need to break it down word for word and then explain how the word’s relate together in a sentence? Shields down, captain. You notice I didn’t fling any insults in your direction when I posted that. Point being that, yeah, there was a pretty massive flood in an isolated part of the world (“isolated” meaning one area, and not global), but that it’s impossible for the entire Earth to have been inundated all at once. And really, flood myths being prominant in nearly every culture isn’t so surprising, seeing as how early civilizations all nestled quite close to bodies of water. You do know, that folks point to the flood which you mentioned as evidence, not merely of the inspiration behind the story of Noah and other flood myths, but as evidence of a global deluge? BTW, Orson Scott Card makes mention of that Mediterrean flood in his alternative history of Christopher Columbus. (Said flood is prominent in Mormon theology I gather.) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806/14 "2004-11-20T08:40:08Z")
Well first this is the Pit. Secondly I was just patronizing you as you were and are attempting to patronize me. I was making simple conversation. Geology has proven that there was a huge flood in that region at one time, in fact prior to the huge flood that occured there during antiquity there was a mother of all floods there during prehistory. What does it have to do with the grand canyon? Nothing, the grand canyon was formed because of many years of erosion caused by running water. A flood would be hard pressed to cause a deep gouging erosion ala the grand canyon. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806/15 "2004-11-20T09:29:15Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Way to jump to conclusions guys. I wasn’t making any defense of creationism or Noah. > > I am a Christian, but my religion isn’t something I defend or argue about, religion is personal to me and I respect the opinions of others on their religious beliefs (or lack there of) so that’s why I try to keep my personal religious opinions to myself. > > I’m just saying it was interesting that the great flood myth (which also has presence, as mentioned, in virtually EVERY major cultural tradition of that area) has a strong root in science. For what it’s worth, I wasn’t trying to imply you were defending creationism and was, like you, just making conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806/16 "2004-11-20T10:00:53Z")
Let’s ban all the books that I don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806/17 "2004-11-20T10:20:30Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Let’s ban all the books that I don’t like. I would imagine you could find something of merit in every book, **Lib**. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806/18 "2004-11-20T10:41:59Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > I would imagine you could find something of merit in every book, **Lib**. Well, there you go. Let the Creationists sell their books. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806/19 "2004-11-20T10:43:21Z")
I knew this [sounded familiar](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=281946). Despite the obligatory “it either is/isn’t all GWB’s fault” hijack in the middle, it’s an interesting read. ---
**Author:** ![Dan\_Norder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4af34b/32.png) [@Dan\_Norder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dan_Norder)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806/20 "2004-11-20T13:18:00Z")
Worse than just the fact the book is being sold is the fact that it was in the _science_ section of the bookstore. And the idea that many cultures having myths about a large flood means that they really had to have been aware of some cataclysmatic flood is poor logic. Most themes in myths all around the world have common themes, and they didn’t have to be based upon something like the myth really happening. I think the biggest influence on the prevalance of flood myths is if the culture existed on a flood plain. It doesn’t take too long for a flood that covers a city in a few feet of water to become a flood that wipes out everything… Or are we to assume that the prevalance of myths around the world of giant reptiles means that people really must have interacted with dinosaurs, or that the prevalence of myths with religious figures dying and coming back means they all based it upon some prehistoric figure who did and they all based the stories around? Come on… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-just-when-you-thought-it-couldnt-get-more-absurd-with-creationism/275806.md?page=2)