# Ah, the arrogance of organized religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2001, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931 "2001-01-19T23:42:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2001, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931/21 "2001-01-20T19:44:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by red\_dragon60 \* > \*\*tracer- I have seen the stats, and they do make me drool. So many hit dice! I am glad they made me a worthy enemy again. > > I guess it is the unerring belief and non-questioning that gets me. One purpose in life is to ask questions and try to find out about ourselves. \*\* And what do you do if you believe you’ve found that answer? Why is finding out about yourself and believing your god is the one true god mutually exclusive? I wonder if those opposed to others thinking their religion is right do so because they are not secure in theirs. Marc ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2001, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931/22 "2001-01-21T15:26:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by red\_dragon60 \* > > \*\*… > > Christianity > > Islam > > Mormonism > > Moonies > > Heaven’s Gate > > Jehovah’s Whitnesses > > Shinto > > > > \*\* > > What…no Judaism?..they seem pretty structured…monotheistic etc… > > \*\* Well, Judaism IS structured and monotheistic. It does not, however, actively seek to convert others, or have a “join us or go to hell” approach. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2001, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931/23 "2001-01-21T16:10:57Z")
And, Nichren Buddhism, at one point, at least, was extremely intolerant and actively proslytised. Nichren is reported to have said of the other Buddhist sects in Japan, “The Nembutsu is hell, Zen are devils, Shingon is a national ruin; and Rishuu are traitors to the country”, so, even Buddhism doesn’t have a completely tolerant history. In fact, at one point, Buddhism proslytised very effectively, to the point that most of East and Southeast Asia is now Buddhist. ---
**Author:** ![Randy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2acd7d/32.png) [@Randy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2001, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931/24 "2001-01-21T21:03:36Z")
I don’t understand why non-believers always misconstrue zeal for a belief as “arrogance”. I have been a Christian for most of my life and I’ll tell you something, Christianity doesn’t have any greater population of “arrogant” members than any other group of Society. Why is it any more arrogant to believe Christianity is truth than to disbelieve it? It’s like the second poster commented, if you’re going to dedicate your life to something, doesn’t it make sense to believe it is the Truth? You are assuming that we have read a book, and believe it on blind faith, without any thought or any logic or proof. We Christians believe what we believe because we live it everyday. We see with our own eyes the way God moves in our lives, and if I have something that I know works for me everyday, that has been proved to me over and over again in very personal ways, and that improves my life so much, wouldn’t I be a selfish idiot to keep it to myself? ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2001, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931/25 "2001-01-21T23:33:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > Well, Judaism IS structured and monotheistic. It does not, however, actively seek to convert others, or have a “join us or go to hell” approach. > > Zev Steinhardt \*\* So- what is the Talmudic “ruling” on what happens to Goyim when they die? ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2001, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931/26 "2001-01-22T00:22:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > So- what is the Talmudic “ruling” on what happens to Goyim when they die? IIRC, the Talmud doesn’t address it. It’s none of the Jews business what arrangements G-d makes for the goyim. A Jew’s obligation is to obey the laws the G-d set down exclusively for the Jews. Again, the sticking point may be the goyim’s obligation to obey Noahide law. I’m still very fuzzy on that. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2001, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931/27 "2001-01-22T04:56:43Z")
Noahide Law (1) Thou shalt not engage in idol worship. (2) Thou shalt not blaspheme God. (3) Thou shalt not shed innocent blood. (4) Thou shalt not engage in bestial, incestuous, adulterous or homosexual relations not commit the act of rape. (5) Thou shalt not steal. (6) Thou shalt establish laws and courts of law to administer these laws, including the death penalty for those who kill, administered only if there is one testifying eyewitness. (7) Thou shalt not be cruel to animals. I had never heard of this before, so I did a quick google search for it. First site I found was from some anti-semitic hate site, who were focusing on #6, saying that it means when the Jews take over this will mean any gentile could be put to death by one person saying they were a murderer (I wish I knew how to do the ‘roll eyes’ smiley). They claim that the Torah requires 2 or 3 witnesses before you can put a Jew to death for murder, though I’ve never heard of that before, so I looked at a different site, and found the same laws posted again, except #3 is considerably shorter, the other site had ‘of a human nor fetus nor ailing person who has a limited time to live’ on the end. I’ve broken 4 of these, while I’ve broken 9 of the 10 commandments, so I guess these do fit me a bit better, statistically… Interestingly enough, I found the Noahide laws referenced in a Christian site as part of the reason why Christians are not required to keep the Sabbath. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2001, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931/28 "2001-01-22T05:34:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SuaSponte \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > > So- what is the Talmudic “ruling” on what happens to Goyim when they die? > > IIRC, the Talmud doesn’t address it. It’s none of the Jews business what arrangements G-d makes for the goyim. A Jew’s obligation is to obey the laws the G-d set down exclusively for the Jews. > > Again, the sticking point may be the goyim’s obligation to obey Noahide law. I’m still very fuzzy on that. > > Sua \*\* On the contrary **Sua Sponte**. In _Sanhedrin_ the Talmud says _chasidei umos ha’olam, yesh lahem chelek l’olam habah._. Translation: "The righteous of the nations of the world (non-Jews) have a portion in the World to Come. If they live by the laws, then they are rewarded in the afterlife. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2001, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931/29 "2001-01-22T10:38:27Z")
Zev- Ah, but what Laws? Not the Torah- since that is for the Chosen. And, since the “Noahide laws” are somewhat “hidden” (only the ones forbidding murder & the eating of live animals appear in the Bible)- are we expected to fulfil Laws we do not know are there? And, if Ignorance is an “excuse”- did you not just condemn a bunch of folks? 😃 Or, are we expected to obey the Mundane Laws, or the Laws of our own faith? However, at least your faith is more tolerant than a few Christian sects that think no-one but them are going to be saved (and they are not real sure about ALL of “them”). Sometimes I want to say those sects are not “Christian” at all, as they have clearly gone far off from the “Word”. (As I am sure you have your doubts of the real “Jewishness” of some of the minor Jewish sects). Badtz- #4 is usually written to just forbid “unclean” sexual practices. And #6 is different than I ave heard it. And, not eating animals with the blood still pumping in them- is very definately part of the Naohide laws, but does not appear in your list. Zev- you have posted a different list, could you do so again? The Celtic church assumes that those who are worthy by the tenants of their (good) faith will recieve their just reward. Oh, and that the Old Covenant still applies to the Jews- if they want. Unlike a few Christian sects that feel Jews are all “condemned”. ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2001, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931/30 "2001-01-22T11:04:36Z")
#4 is one of the ones I have broken. The Noahide laws that I have not broken are 1, 2, and 6 as I found them. The only one of the ‘Big 10’ I have not broken is the ‘Thou shalt not kill’ one. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2001, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931/31 "2001-01-22T11:29:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > On the contrary **Sua Sponte**. In _Sanhedrin_ the Talmud says _chasidei umos ha’olam, yesh lahem chelek l’olam habah._. Translation: "The righteous of the nations of the world (non-Jews) have a portion in the World to Come. If they live by the laws, then they are rewarded in the afterlife. > > Zev Steinhardt Oops. I hope I didn’t break one of the Noahide laws by talking out of my ass. :o 😃 I think I transposed a few ideas together and came up with a false recollection. IOW, I plead recovered memories. 😉 Sua ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2001, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931/32 "2001-01-22T11:31:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Badtz Maru \* > \*\*The Noahide laws that I have not broken are 1, 2, and **6** as I found them. You’ve established courts of law? Cool. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2001, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931/33 "2001-01-22T12:26:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SuaSponte \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Badtz Maru \* > > \*\*The Noahide laws that I have not broken are 1, 2, and **6** as I found them. > > You’ve established courts of law? Cool. > > Sua \*\* Well, I think that one doesn’t apply to individuals…since I have done nothing to subvert the courts and have always paid my fines, I don’t think I am acting against that law. 8^) ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2001, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931/34 "2001-01-22T16:56:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > \*\*Zev- Ah, but what Laws? Not the Torah- since that is for the Chosen. And, since the “Noahide laws” are somewhat “hidden” (only the ones forbidding murder & the eating of live animals appear in the Bible)- are we expected to fulfil Laws we do not know are there? And, if Ignorance is an “excuse”- did you not just condemn a bunch of folks? 😃 Or, are we expected to obey the Mundane Laws, or the Laws of our own faith? However, at least your faith is more tolerant than a few Christian sects that think no-one but them are going to be saved (and they are not real sure about ALL of “them”). Sometimes I want to say those sects are not “Christian” at all, as they have clearly gone far off from the “Word”. (As I am sure you have your doubts of the real “Jewishness” of some of the minor Jewish sects). \*\* Daniel, I have another Talmudic saying for you. It goes like this: _ones rachmanai patrei_. What this means is that if there are circumstances beyond your control, you are exempt. Example: On Rosh HaShannah we are to blow a shofar. What happens if, despite your best efforts, you can’t find one? You are exempt. Finished. No punishment, no sin. Same thing with ignorance. If a Jew, for example, for whatever reason, never heard of the prohibition against eating _treif_ and did so for years and years and years; there is no sin, since he did not know. The same applies to non-Jews and the Noahide law. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Badtz- #4 is usually written to just forbid “unclean” sexual practices. And #6 is different than I ave heard it. And, not eating animals with the blood still pumping in them- is very definately part of the Naohide laws, but does not appear in your list. Zev- you have posted a different list, could you do so again? > \*\* 1. Idolatry 2. Murder 3. Forbidden sexual relations 4. Eating the flesh of a living animal 5. Blasphemy (cursing God) 6. Thievery/Stealing 7. Setting up courts/civil laws and enforcing them. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2001, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931/35 "2001-01-23T01:09:34Z")
The foundation of the Noahide laws seems to be largely based in the Mishneh Torah, written by Moses Maimonides (1138-1204). It took him ten years to write and my understanding is the book is of great value, theologically, to Judaism. Now, how much the Jews consider this authoritative, I do not know. The book I have (_The Path of the Righteous Gentile_ by Clorefene & Rogalsky) heavily refrences this work and the Babylonian Talmud, which would have been put together much earlier (around 500 C.E.). Each of the seven laws has several parts and does get somewhat complex. **DITWD** said **““Noahide laws” are somewhat “hidden” (only the ones forbidding murder & the eating of live animals appear in the Bible”**. If you look at Acts 15 and Acts 21, then 4 out of the 7 are actually mentioned and the idea that there are more is hinted at. (Idolatry, Sexual Relations, Limb of a living animal and Blasphemy) Of course, this requires a bit of creative interpretation to be seen as referencing the Noahide Laws, but who is better at creative interpretation than Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2001, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931/36 "2001-01-23T03:50:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mayor Quimby \* Of course, this requires a bit of creative interpretation to be seen as referencing the Noahide Laws, but who is better at creative interpretation than Christians. \*\* Better? Ever hear the phrase “Talmudic reasoning/ arguement”? We have but sat at the feet of the Masters. 😃 How many times have I beaten zev, etc in one of these debates? Maybe one in 10? (Altho, actually, we are usually on the same side) It is true that once one of our “rebs” said that I knew a lot about the OT- he did not have to add the unspoken “for a gentile”. 😃 I am but a talented amatuer- those guys are pros. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2001, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931/37 "2001-01-23T05:47:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mayor Quimby \* > \*\*The foundation of the Noahide laws seems to be largely based in the Mishneh Torah, written by Moses Maimonides (1138-1204). It took him ten years to write and my understanding is the book is of great value, theologically, to Judaism. Now, how much the Jews consider this authoritative, I do not know. The book I have (_The Path of the Righteous Gentile_ by Clorefene & Rogalsky) heavily refrences this work and the Babylonian Talmud, which would have been put together much earlier (around 500 C.E.). Each of the seven laws has several parts and does get somewhat complex. \*\* The Babylonian Talmud was compiled over several centuries and sealed at about 400 CE (± 50 years). The seven Noahide laws are clearly deliniated in the Talmud. The Talmud, one must realize, is not written like a conventional law book. It is written more like the minutes of a rabbinical meeting, with each side staking out it’s position and offering arguments and counter-arguments to bolster their position. At times, the topic can go off on a tangent for pages on end. The _Rambam_ (Maimonides) wrote his _Mishneh Torah_ roughly at about 1200CE. The _Mishneh Torah_ was the first major codification of Jewish law since the Talmud. It _is_ written as a convential law book, organized into major topics, chapters and subchapters. The _Mishneh Torah_ is often the guide as to which Talmudic position was the accepted _halachah_. However, the definition of the seven Noahide commandments is not disputed in the Talmud. The _Rambam_ is merely relisting the commandments. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Opus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/858c86/32.png) [@Opus1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Opus1)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2001, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931/38 "2001-01-23T06:29:44Z")
zev\_steinhardt: > [@](#): > > Same thing with ignorance. If a Jew, for example, for whatever reason, never heard of the prohibition against eating treif and did so for years and years and years; there is no sin, since he did not know. The same applies to non-Jews and the Noahide law. This makes sense, but what about passages like: Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall _sin through ignorance_ against any of the commandments of the LORD [concerning things] which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: blah, blah, blah… (Lev. 4:2) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2001, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931/39 "2001-01-23T07:33:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by red\_dragon60 \* > This is what has turned me off of mainstream religions. This being the thought that they are the Only One, the One True Light. It bothers me that they have the arrogance to say that everyone does not follow them is going to hell, trodden down by the IPU, etc. > > I turned to Buddhism partly because of this. It teaches that every time you are comfortable with it, evaluate if you really are. We make no claims that we are the one true religion. **red dragon** , I can understand your disappointment with the mainstream religions. What I find curious is why in light of your disappointment you felt the need to seek out another mainstream religion. > [@](#): > > I think it is that the religions want to project a sense of power. Anyone have input on this? That might be the case of some those denominations that have a heirarchy, which have a vested interest in securing their foundation. But by and large, having been in several different christian denominations, the more fervent the belief, the more fervently they believe in the one true way. Among Christians generally, the prospect for going to hell is allocated to wicked people and those who have not accepted Christ. As far as I’m concerned, as a Christian I find that the bible says we are all destined for ultimate salvation. I’m afraid I can’t compromise on that belief. ---
**Author:** ![Ziactrice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@Ziactrice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ziactrice)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2001, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931/40 "2001-01-23T13:59:07Z")
The Southen Baptists not only believe their worship exclusive on the ‘saved afterworld’… everyone of the true believers will also get express tickets in the deluxe car.🙂 I didn’t meet really weird religious attitudes until I went to college at Baylor University. One dorm peer told me I would go to hell because I listened to music, because there were demons in music. She was serious. :eek: Another frankly said since I was partial to dancing (not allowed on campus, btw), I was definitely ‘bound for the hellfires’. Then another roomate hit on me, because she thought I was a closet lesbian (I’m so straight, you could use me for a ruler. Just not interested.). That was sorta odd, because right after she asked me to go to church with her. (Could I have warning on the 90 degree changes of subject, please?) I’ve known Buddhists, and I must say their attitude made a far better impression. I don’t follow a recognizable church fraction, so I think this Universalist church would be a nice place to go sing. That is why I go to church, to hear everyone sing. There is also a “Church of Free Thinkers” here in the DFW bi-cities, for atheists to have social contact. The “worship” are a series of informative speakers, instead, on various topics. That sounds quite novel, and even fun, to me. Much more fun than being compelled to a Southern Baptist church to hear a sermon on why all the Lutherans are going straight to hell. Grin. I don’t like fanatics, and after I read Upton’s Sinclair’s book, _On Religion_, I don’t like organized religion/churches at all. Very informative work, as he digs up more “dirt” than he ever did in _The Jungle_. Samatha [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-arrogance-of-organized-religion/50931.md?page=3)