# Ah, the joys of bill collectors (long) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 4, 2002, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441 "2002-12-04T15:10:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2002, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441/21 "2002-12-05T17:51:42Z")
For those interested, there is a fascinating short piece in the November issue of _Harper’s_ magazine (pp. 50-51) on debt collection. The author, Bill Wasik, points out that debt collection is now “increasingly a science.” > [@](#): > > Sophisticated software packages, such as Ontario’s - installations of which cost from $100,000 to $1 million - will dial calls automatically, allowing each collector to attempt, on average, thirty-three outbound calls each hour. Typically collectors are female, by a ratio of two to one; their average hourly wage is roughly $10, not including commission. The vast majority of them are, when hired, new to collections, but many nevertheless possess and intimate understanding of the enemy mind, they themselves having been collected from by an agency. It’s amazing what they can find out about you, as the agencies are allowed to use > [@](#): > > commercial “skip-tracing” databases, also used by law enforcement, that combine public data - from telephone directories, change-of-address records, etc. - with files from more privileged sources such as motor-vehicle registries and credit bureaus. For a few dollars the website of Accurint, one database vendor, will supply the phone numbers, addresses, and Social Secutiry numbers not only of the debtor but also of his neighbors and relatives. This latter data might be put to use: when a debtor proves hard to find, agencies will often contact his employer, neighbors, or family, in the process apprising them of his debt. And finally, for those being pursued for a small debt, don’t give up, especially if the debt isn’t yours, as in **Sauron** ’s case. > [@](#): > > For scofflaws deemed unworthy of suit, however, the calls will abate in any event. After six months of unsuccessful attempts, an agency will usually declare an account uncollectable, returning it to the client. By the time another is shunted into its place in the queue, its collector, too, may meanwhile have been displaced. At most agencies, a fifth of the collectors leave within three weeks of their arrival, and annual turnover reaches 80 to 100 percent. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2002, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441/22 "2002-12-05T20:46:11Z")
**BRAVO, Sauron!** A salute from peaceful honest people everywhere! 😃 Well done, my man. Damn well done. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2002, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441/23 "2002-12-05T21:01:00Z")
Why, thank you, **Libertarian**. Coming from you, that means a lot. I’m not a very confrontational person, at all. It took a lot of planning for me to be able to talk to Inspector Coleman as I did on the phone. Once I realized what a jerk he intended to be, I resolved to make things as difficult for him and his company as I possibly could. I mailed them a letter on Wednesday, recapping the conversation I had with Coleman and noting once again that I dispute the charge and that AT&T had told me the charge wasn’t valid. I also informed them that I had filed complaints with the FTC and the Alabama attorney general’s office. Both those worthy organizations have acknowledged receipt of my complaint, although I seriously doubt either one will actually do much with it. One last piece of info for those who might encounter their own Inspector Coleman: His bluster about immediately filing papers with the credit bureau was also bogus. By law (once again, the FDCPA), they have to inform me in writing that they’re attempting to collect a debt, then wait 30 days before contacting a credit bureau regarding said debt. To date, I still haven’t received a letter from this company. He was merely attempting to put the screws to me so I’d cave and send a check ASAP. The schmuck. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2002, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441/24 "2002-12-05T21:17:06Z")
Also, under the aforementioned act, if you send a letter to him, stating that he is not to contact you further, he cannot do so. Clark Howards site has a form letter you can download for that purpose. Personally, most collections people I have dealt with have been idiots…totally unaware of the laws they are supposed to follow, or hoping that you will be also. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441/25 "2002-12-06T10:38:23Z")
Please keep us posted. When you have a resolution, or even further information, resurrect the thread and let us know. You are an example of what makes freedom work, and why consumers, when they are sufficiently courageous and diligent, can make the market fair for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441/26 "2002-12-06T13:54:03Z")
So, Miss Cleo gave you bad advice? 🙂 My cousin once received a phone bill with over $700 worth of 900 charges. Two of the charges were made during times when the kids were left alone but the bulk of the charges were made during a two day period where everyone was either at home or school. So she called and disputed the charges. The phone company wouldn’t budge an inch and would only offer a payment plan and a 900 call block so future calls could not be made. They insisted that the billing was done electronically and was error-free. When my cousin explained that she had school and work records that proved everyone was out of the house, they insisted that _someone_ was using their phone. After some pressing, their son confessed that he and a friend of his, Jake, had indeed called the 900 number listed but he swore on his life that they only called it twice, the calls only lasted a few minutes, and it was done after school. There were two calls listed after school hours. But he completely denied making the costliest calls made during school hours and the attendance office backed him on it. They were convinced the phone company had made a mistake OR the 900 people were fraudulently billing them until they discussed it with Jake’s mother. She sympathized and said that Jake had gotten busted for making 900 calls a few months back. This was the same kid who was with her son when he made the after-school calls. After investigating a bit, they found out that Jake had been absent from school (alone) on the two days when the costliest calls were made. And Jake knew their garage code. But of course they couldn’t prove it. End result: they were out $700 and the 10 year friendship ended on a really sour note. So, I guess what I’m saying, is are you absolutely sure that _someone_ didn’t make these calls? I’d block 900 numbers from my service just in case someone you trusted took advantage of you. Stranger things have happened. ---
**Author:** ![pipper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c2a13f/32.png) [@pipper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pipper)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441/27 "2002-12-06T14:25:46Z")
Sauron- I’d agree that the provision of the FDCPA you cited would probably be the best argument in support of a violation of the act. However, the act as a whole is designed to protect the debtor, and I’m not sure that as a third party, we’d even have standing to sue under the act. I suppose if I was unemployed and bored I would spend the time, money and aggrevation to pursue this, but in the grand scheme of things its much more pragmatic to just let it go (which just aggrevates the hell outta me, because the companies that pull this kind of stuff are counting on the fact that its too big a hassle to ever call them on it and figure its ok to keep doing it). (/hijack on) Did you see the Chicago story about the woman who was forced into the trunk of her car and the kidnapper then drove to Detroit where she was finally set free? My first thought upon hearing this was, “Oh, the poor woman.” But then, as the reporter described her as “collections agent” , my thoughts changed to something along the line of “Serves you right, its the cosmic karma coming back to bite you in the ass!” I am a bad person… (/ hijack off) ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441/28 "2002-12-06T14:31:32Z")
You know, now that you mention it, there _was_ a kid named “Jake” who lived in our neighborhood for a while … If someone broke into our house to use the phone to call 900-numbers, we never saw any sign of it. It’s also weird that the two calls in question occurred within a span of about five minutes, but we never had any other 900-number activity on our account. I probably would have already paid the bill had not two (two!) separate AT&T representatives told me that the charge wasn’t valid and would be removed from my bill. In fact, the second one I spoke with looked at my account on her computer screen when I spoke with her and said she could see that the charge was being removed; it just hadn’t made it through the billing cycle yet. Of course, that was more than a year ago, and here we are. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441/29 "2002-12-06T14:35:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pipper \* > \*\*Sauron- I’d agree that the provision of the FDCPA you cited would probably be the best argument in support of a violation of the act. However, the act as a whole is designed to protect the debtor, and I’m not sure that as a third party, we’d even have standing to sue under the act. I’m not sure you could bring a suit based on receiving a communication from a collection agency meant for someone else (what sort of damages could you prove?), but you could fill out a complaint form. It’s fairly easy, and there’s one on the FDCPA page I linked earlier. It’ll take you about ten minutes. Not as satisfying as taking the collections agency for half a million bucks, I know, but sometimes in life you gotta look for victories where you can find them. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441/30 "2002-12-06T16:13:05Z")
I can back up that 80-100 percent turnover figure. One agency that I worked at during the summers would have emplyee numbers that were given out sequentially as people were hired. By my third summer there I had an employee number that was third lowest in the company. That means out of 50 or so collectors only 2 were there longer than that two year period. Many couldn’t hack it, it’s a tough job. Collectors that were good would move on to attorney offices to collect for more salary. Also: No one has mentioned my old favorite collections trick: **The nearby message**. If you have no way of contacting a debtor by phone at home or work, you can leave a message with a neighbor to have them call. Of course, you cannot discuss the bill. This would infuriate people. But, it would also almost guarantee a call back. You would at least be able to get them on the phone. I would pull up the phone records of everyone on the street that my debtor lived on. Then you call the even or odd numbered houses (same side of street) and just plead ignorance. With a little charm, and a lot of acting dumb, you can almost always get them to take a note and leave it on the door or mailbox of the debtor. This also works great in apartment buildings. I really enjoyed some parts of that job. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441/31 "2002-12-06T16:22:59Z")
Ahh, I just realized I may be putting myself in a position to defend collections agencies against the wrath of the teeming milliions?! _puts on raincoat_ _waits for shitstorm to start_ ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441/32 "2002-12-06T16:43:42Z")
> [@](#): > > I called AT&T back in January 2002, when I got the first letter from a collection agency. Their response was that since it had been turned over to a collection agency, they no longer had control over the debt. OK, this is a flat-out lie from AT&T (shocking, I know). I work in collections for a local telephone company, and if we report someone to a collection agency in error we are able to remove the account from the agency with one phone call. I would suggest you could try a conference call between AT&T and Inspector Coleman so the horse’s ass hears it from the horse’s mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441/33 "2002-12-06T17:13:12Z")
Hmm. Interesting, **Otto**. I didn’t realize AT&T could still invalidate the debt. I’ll check into that. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Mauvaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mauvaise/32/11084_2.png) [@Mauvaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mauvaise)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441/34 "2002-12-06T17:34:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Debaser \* > ignorance. With a little charm, and a lot of acting dumb, you can almost always get them to take a note and leave it on the door or mailbox of the debtor. This also works great in apartment buildings. I’m one of those cases where no amount of charm or “acting” dumb will work. I either tell the person that I don’t know my neighbour or I’m not a fucking secretary and I won’t be taking any messages. I had one festering buttmonkey such as your self (and may I say your username is very appropriate) try this the other day. She claimed my neighbour in question had won an award for the company he worked with. :rolleyes: How stupid do you assholes think I am anyway? (Don’t answer that) I told her I didn’t believe for a moment that was the truth, that I was sure she was a bill collector and if I wasn’t doing her fucking job for her unless she planned on paying me a services fee. She hung up. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441/35 "2002-12-06T18:35:53Z")
If you don’t want to take the message, you don’t have to, **Mauvaise**. The vast majority of people are happy to do it. Of course, most people don’t automatically assume that it’s a debt collector calling, as you did. How is it that you are so familiar with these tactics? We now know that your neighbors are piece of shit debtors. Maybe you are too. How many messages have your neighbors left for you? Nearby messages are legal. If you suggested a law making them illegal I would probably be all for it. But, as long as it’s allowed, it is only reasonable to expect the collectors to take advantage of it. Lets not forget: It’s the debtors who owe the money to the collectors. They deserve to be inconvenienced and embarrassed. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441/36 "2002-12-06T18:47:48Z")
My ex-husband was being chased by bill collectors as we were breaking up. Unlike Shodan, for good reasons. Its amazing how helpful a cheated on soon to be ex wife is in giving bill collectors his work phone number, his home phone number, his girlfriends phone number, his parent’s phone number, the hours he tends to be at each location… Now, I wouldn’t go delivering messages to my neighbor. But if anyone wants to harrass my ex husband, let me know. ---
**Author:** ![Mauvaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mauvaise/32/11084_2.png) [@Mauvaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mauvaise)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441/37 "2002-12-06T18:55:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Debaser \* > How is it that you are so familiar with these tactics? We now know that your neighbors are piece of shit debtors. Maybe you are too. How many messages have your neighbors left for you? The first time someone tried that “I’m trying to get a hold of one of your neighbour” routine I didn’t know it was a collection agency, but I damn sure knew there was something about the whole deal that set off alarm bells. At first I thought someone was trying to scam _me_ in some way, but I couldn’t figure out the angle. A friend told me it was probably a bill collector. I guess I am a piece of shit debtor. I owe money to Columbia House, however, I’ve never received a message from a neighbour. So either they don’t care to take messages either, or no one has called them to do so. > [@](#): > > Lets not forget: It’s the debtors who owe the money to the collectors. They deserve to be inconvenienced and embarrassed. Yes, but it’s not the debtors who are being inconvenienced in this scenario, It’s people that have absolutely no relationship with the POSD. What did they do to deserve to be inconvenienced? Pick the wrong neighbourhood to live in? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441/38 "2002-12-06T18:57:08Z")
ex - SO’s and ex - Landlords are the best sources of information on debtors. Most debtors are scumbags. They don’t pay thier bills. They are also the type of people who seem to leave a wake of enemies in thier path. Many times when calling the last known phone number I would get an old girlfriend/boyfriend or roomate who got ripped of by them one way or another. They are more than happy to spill the beans and give all the contact info. Also, if the debtor rents (most do, as home ownership remains unattainable to these losers) you can try their old landlords. It’s easy to find the legal owner of a building by calling the local town/city tax collector. Usually you can get a few old addresses, and the landlords (who most likely have been ripped off by the debtor) will be happy to tell you everything they know. All a good skip-tracer needs is something like “he moved in with his parents, in Omaha” to find the deadbeat. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441/39 "2002-12-06T19:03:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Debaser \* > Lets not forget: It’s the debtors who owe the money to the collectors. They deserve to be inconvenienced and embarrassed. Incorrect, sir. If you’d read the OP and my subsequent posts, you’ll see I actually owe no money, and AT&T has agreed with me on two separate occasions. But because of the inaction of some lackey in that company, I’m being assumed guilty until proven innocent. That ain’t the way it’s supposed to work. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441/40 "2002-12-06T19:05:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mauvaise \* > \*\*Yes, but it’s not the debtors who are being inconvenienced in this scenario, It’s people that have absolutely no relationship with the POSD. What did they do to deserve to be inconvenienced? Pick the wrong neighbourhood to live in? \*\* Sure, they neighbors didn’t do anything to deserve to be inconvenienced. I wish that collectors never had to bother them. However, you are only allowed to have a nearby message delivered once. So, even if you live next door to many deadbeats there is a slight chance of ever being called more than once. These non-debtors are harrassed much more by telemarketers than by debt collectors, for instance. Also, most people don’t know that they are helping a collector. I usually phrased it in such a way that they thought I was an old friend of the debtor. ( I would do this w/o lying of course ). They think they are helping them out, and are happy to do it usually. It’s the debtor who later sees the message and freaks out. They assume the neighbor knows everthing. They almost always call up right away all pissed off that we dared to tell the neighbor about the debt. It’s not the best way to get them on the phone, but it’s better than not talking to them at all. Plus, I often would get a phone number from them out of the deal, so I could harrass them in the future. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-the-joys-of-bill-collectors-long/140441.md?page=3)