# Ah, what the hell, I'll pit Michael Schiavo **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 18, 2005, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803 "2005-06-18T08:50:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803/21 "2005-06-18T19:42:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > _I_? I didn’t even use the word amenorrhea. I’m still not quite clear what it means. > > You’re still wrong. Do you not get what everybody’s telling you? It’s the old absence of evidence /= evidence of absence thing. Amenorrhea- The lack of menstruation. Can be brought on by age, health, eating disorders, extreme loss of fatty tissues(athletes, marathoners), Etc. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803/22 "2005-06-18T19:47:03Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Amenorrhea- The lack of menstruation. Can be brought on by age, health, eating disorders, extreme loss of fatty tissues(athletes, marathoners), Etc. > > Sam Yeah, I just checked in Wikipedia a minute ago. Thanks mucho. In which case, **threemae** , fuck you. I didn’t make it up, much less out of whole cloth. You can check around the board and find other posters saying the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803/23 "2005-06-18T19:56:37Z")
This really isn’t anything personal against Micael Schiavo, I think that he’s an individual that took a principled stand on behalf of the best option for a loved one in a persistent vegitative state when he could have simply handed Terry Schiavo over to her parents and walked away with money, a brand new life, and a lot less hate mail from fanatics. I’m disagreeing with the whole process where her OBGYN, PCP, etc. ended up paying for medical malpractice, when, IMHO, it’s far from clear that a failure on the part of the OBGYN or PCP is what led to failing to diagnose bulimia or give her treatment for it. Unfortunately, through Googling, I haven’t been able to find any primary sources regarding the trial, but I’ve looked extensively for something relating to amenhorrea and I can’t find it. So, basically, when it comes to the amenhorrea, cite? > [@DoctorJ](#): > > Terri had lost a lot of weight (she may have been at a normal weight at the time of her collapse, but she had been overweight before) and she was being seen for infertility and amenorrhea. IMO, it is absolutely malpractice to not probe for further signs of an eating disorder at that point; it is rather shocking how prevalent such things are in young women. I haven’t read any more about that case, so I don’t know many specifics, but it’s not nearly as ridiculous as you think. I’ll grant that if it’s true that Terry Schiavo presented to a PCP or OBGYN with amenhorrea, then both failed in their standard of care if they failed to probe deeper into a possible eating disorder, but I can’t find anything that suggests that she presented wth signs of an eating disorder beyond a single blood draw with low potassium levels _after_ being pumped with several liters of saline and epinephrine, which in hindsight seem to be more reasonable explanations for the abnormal K+ levels than an eating disorder. > [@irishgirl](#): > > **threemae** - the tort of negligence has three parts. > > 1. A duty of care > 2. A failure of that duty > 3. Harm must result from that failure > > Michael may have been her husband, but under the tort he did not have the DUTY OF CARE that her physicians did. > > 1. Her PCP settled out of court, without admitting liability. > 2. Her gynaecologist was found negligent in a court of law, based on the available evidence. > 3. The ME’s report is an opinion, it is not “proof” that there was no bulimia. > 4. The ME is working with the same data available to the courts at the time of the negligence case, not with new information. If you read the autopsy report you will notice that he is talking about blood results taken the day she collapsed, not 15 years later. > 5. The ME is interpreting the low potassium as a factitious result from the fluid bolus and resuscitation, the courts didn’t. > > So, based on the available evidence the courts came to one conclusion, the ME another. That kind of stuff happens all the time. > > Since the courts decided the doctor was negligent, after weighing up the evidence, MS was justified in bringing the case. You have no reason to pit him. You’re making a circular argument here: the OBGYN had a duty of care, a court found that s/he failed in that duty of care, therefore it’s true that those physicians failed in their duty of care. Sure, perhaps this rant is aimed more at a Florida court or jury for finding in favor of Michael Schiavo than Mr. Schiavo for brining the suit himself, but I do dislike the fact that he’s willing to jump to blame her OBGYN and PCP for failing to make an eating disorder diagnosis when he apparently didn’t notice any eating disorder after living with her. We don’t know how Terry Schiavo died. It’s possible that: -She had some congenital or other disorder that caused her to collapse in 1990 that no one understands or has suggested -She collapsed as a result of abuse on Michael Schiavo’s part -She collapsed from an eating disorder -Israeli Intelligence agents decided that she just knew too damn much and pulled off a botched traceless assasination attempt What do all of these situations share: there’s really no evidence in any direction for any of them, although some are definitely mor likely than others. It’s certainly billions of times more likely that she suffered an eating disorder than was assasinated by Israeli intelligence agents, but I don’t think that there’s strong or even a preponderance of evidence to say that Ms. Schiavo suffered from an eating disorder or that her physicians failed in persuing that option when she was examined by them, hence this whole thread. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803/24 "2005-06-18T19:57:53Z")
> [@The Hook](#): > > Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly are the signs for bulimia you’re supposed to look for in a person that has been fed by a tube for 15 years? Terri Schiavo may have been bulimic prior to collapsing and entering a PVS. The doctors think that her bulimia was the cause of the collapse. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803/25 "2005-06-18T19:59:43Z")
Or… threemae is an attention whore who started a provacative thread and has no intent of being intellectually honest. And the woman’s name was TERRI. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803/26 "2005-06-18T20:00:26Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > This really isn’t anything personal against Micael Schiavo, I think that he’s an individual that took a principled stand on behalf of the best option for a loved one in a persistent vegitative state when he could have simply handed Terry Schiavo over to her parents and walked away with money, a brand new life, and a lot less hate mail from fanatics. So wait a minute here. You’re pitting him for doing “the right thing” in caring for his wife and not taking the money and running off? You’re one twisted individual. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803/27 "2005-06-18T20:01:47Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > So, basically, when it comes to the amenhorrea, cite? On 3/1/05, the Miami Herald reported that > [@](#): > > During the malpractice case, at least one of Schiavo’s friends testified they knew she was bulimic because after meals out, she always immediately excused herself to go to the bathroom. Her husband also knew she had peculiar eating patterns but did not realize they were dangerous, Fox said. > > Records from the hospital where Schiavo was treated after her collapse note that "she apparently has been trying to keep her weight down with dieting by herself, drinking liquids most of the time during the day and drinking about 10-15 glasses of iced tea.’’ > > Fox said that in the months before her collapse, Schiavo went to the doctor because she had stopped menstruating. It was a silent ‘‘cry for help,’’ the lawyer said. But the doctor did not take a complete medical history that might have revealed an eating disorder. Wikipedia links to this piece (Item #4 in its article on Terri Schiavo). It requires free registration. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803/28 "2005-06-18T20:06:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yeah, I just checked in Wikipedia a minute ago. Thanks mucho. > > In which case, **threemae** , fuck you. I didn’t make it up, much less out of whole cloth. You can check around the board and find other posters saying the same thing. Well, fuck you too **Marley23** , the issue here is whether or not Terry Schiavo had amenorrhea, not whether amenorrhea exists: of course it does. I’ve known personally a close friend that suffered from it due to overexercising, so I’m certainly not questioning its existence or its being a possible sign of an eating disorder. I just can’t find a cite where it says that she presented with it to either an OBGYN or PCP. Again, my research hasn’t been exhaustive, but I’m simply asking for a cite that says that _Terry Schiavo_ had it. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803/29 "2005-06-18T20:11:25Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ll grant that if it’s true that Terry Schiavo presented to a PCP or OBGYN with amenhorrea, then both failed in their standard of care if they failed to probe deeper into a possible eating disorder, but I can’t find anything that suggests that she presented wth signs of an eating disorder beyond a single blood draw with low potassium levels after being pumped with several liters of saline and epinephrine, which in hindsight seem to be more reasonable explanations for the abnormal K+ levels than an eating disorder. Not really. She didn’t get that much saline in the field–I think it was about a liter–and I’m not sure when that blood was drawn. Still, her K went from 2.0 to 2.9 to 3.6 over a few hours, which is just what you’d expect it to do if were down due to volume and acid loss (as one would get if one purged) as she is rehydrated. The biggest problem I have with the idea that the code itself led to the low potassium is that if you accept it, you still haven’t explained why this otherwise reasonably healthy 26-year-old collapsed into V-fib. You have to suppose an entirely separate mechanism for her collapse–“multiplying entities unnecessarily”, as William of Ockham would have put it. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803/30 "2005-06-18T20:12:34Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > So wait a minute here. You’re pitting him for doing “the right thing” in caring for his wife and not taking the money and running off? You’re one twisted individual. > > Sam You can pit someone without saying they are a bad person. I don’t think that he should go around suing people for failing to see what he didn’t see either, but it doesn’t mean that I even think he’s a bad person. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803/31 "2005-06-18T20:26:05Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > the issue here is whether or not Terry Schiavo had amenorrhea, not whether amenorrhea exists: of course it does. I’ve known personally a close friend that suffered from it due to overexercising, so I’m certainly not questioning its existence or its being a possible sign of an eating disorder. I just can’t find a cite where it says that she presented with it to either an OBGYN or PCP. Again, my research hasn’t been exhaustive, but I’m simply asking for a cite that says that _Terry Schiavo_ had it. Hey, no wonder you can’t find a cite, you’re looking for info on some woman named _Terry_ Schiavo. Her name was **Terri**. You might also want to take a look at **Marley23’s** post number 27 here, you know, the one that points out in the months before her collapse **Terri** Schiavo saw a doctor for amenorrhea. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803/32 "2005-06-18T20:36:45Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > Well, fuck you too **Marley23** , the issue here is whether or not Terry Schiavo had amenorrhea, not whether amenorrhea exists: of course it does. I’ve known personally a close friend that suffered from it due to overexercising, so I’m certainly not questioning its existence or its being a possible sign of an eating disorder. I just can’t find a cite where it says that she presented with it to either an OBGYN or PCP. Again, my research hasn’t been exhaustive, but I’m simply asking for a cite that says that _Terry Schiavo_ had it. I already provided it, so read that. The “fuck you” was for saying I made up the allegation, not because I’m so dumb I thought you were accusing me of inventing the disease. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803/33 "2005-06-18T20:58:46Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > You can pit someone without saying they are a bad person. I don’t think that he should go around suing people for failing to see what he didn’t see either, but it doesn’t mean that I even think he’s a bad person. You’re all tied up here, threemae. You condemn the man for not abandoning his wife and making sure that she was cared for, and that her wishes made prior to falling ill were carried out. Apparently, that doesn’t make him a bad person though? Sheesh. What a position to carry. Burdensome to say the least. He doesn’t have the burden of recognizing things like eating disorders. He hasn’t been trained in such matters, and his wif isn’t obligated to be honest with him about such matters. To further this part of my argument, I’ll remind you that this all happened some 15 years ago when eating disorders weren’t headline fucking news. I can recognize an eating disorder today, but in 1990, who would have known what to look for? However, doctors are specifically trained to recognize these things, and that they didn’t is curious. Doctors are charged with our care much like police are charged with our safety. If a police officer didn’t recognize an angry man wielding a knife as a potential threat and allows said angry man to keep posession of the knife and he goes on to murder his wife with said knife, you bet your sweet ass there would be a suit. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803/34 "2005-06-18T20:59:39Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > I’m disagreeing with the whole process where her OBGYN, PCP, etc. ended up paying for medical malpractice, when, IMHO, it’s far from clear that a failure on the part of the OBGYN or PCP is what led to failing to diagnose bulimia or give her treatment for it. That’s funny, the expert witnesses for the prosecution and the **defense** in that case apparently thought she had bulimia or another eating disorder. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803/35 "2005-06-18T21:56:01Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > You’re all tied up here, threemae. You condemn the man for not abandoning his wife and making sure that she was cared for, and that her wishes made prior to falling ill were carried out. Apparently, that doesn’t make him a bad person though? > > Sheesh. What a position to carry. Burdensome to say the least. Sam, you’re being kinda stupid here. I’ve never criticized Mr. Schiavo for carrying out his wife’s wishes, all of this criticism is related to the medical malpractice suit. Where in the hell have I, “condemned the man for not abandoning his wife?” **Marley23** , so it appears that she did present to her OBGYN with amenorrhea, but in post 22 all that you provide is general background on amenorrhea, which is caused by endocrine issues in the majority of cases rather than an eating disorder. Posts 27 and 28 were a simulpost, so I was referring to 22 in 28. (That’s a mouthfull.) Anyway, back to the real topic: Okay, so we all agree that for a successful medical malpractice suit you have to demonstrate that the malpractice was what caused the tort. Even if her OBGYN failed to diagnose an eating disorder, that eating disorder has to be the cause of the damage that Terri and Michael have suffered. I’m arguing that there isn’t a preponderance of evidence for the claim that bulimia led to Ms. Schiavo’s cardiac arrest, eventual PVS, etc. > [@DoctorJ](#): > > Not really. She didn’t get that much saline in the field–I think it was about a liter–and I’m not sure when that blood was drawn. Still, her K went from 2.0 to 2.9 to 3.6 over a few hours, which is just what you’d expect it to do if were down due to volume and acid loss (as one would get if one purged) as she is rehydrated. > > The biggest problem I have with the idea that the code itself led to the low potassium is that if you accept it, you still haven’t explained why this otherwise reasonably healthy 26-year-old collapsed into V-fib. You have to suppose an entirely separate mechanism for her collapse–“multiplying entities unnecessarily”, as William of Ockham would have put it. Well, wouldn’t we expect a similar pattern in her K levels from the 1.5 liters of saline coupled with epinephrine. I’ll concede that I don’t have an alternate explanation for what caused Ms. Schiavo’s cardiac arrest, but I have a hard time believing that it was caused by the bulimia either. Are you sure that we aren’t just latching on to the first semi-plausible explanation that we can come up with and continuing to latch on to it in the absensce of other evidence? I’ll just use the relevant cites from Wikipedia: "The hypokalemia has been speculated by some physicians and others to have been exacerbated by an eating disorder, however, in the autopsy report, released on June 15, 2005, the Medical Examiner states that insufficient evidence of the eating disorder hypothesis exists to reliably cite it as the cause of the hypokalemia. The Medical Examiner further stated that there are other possible explanations for the hypokalemia. For example, Schiavo’s potassium level could have dropped after her heart stopped and possibly during resuscitation efforts, particularly considering the amount of intravenous fluids administered. Schiavo’s routine of drinking large amounts of caffeinated tea might have led to the potassium deficiency, as well. " "Thogmartin found no evidence of strangulation or other trauma leading to her collapse, nor could he conclude definitively that she had an eating disorder. The autopsy also found no conclusive evidence to determine what brought on her cardiac arrest in 1990. Thogmartin said the measurements which seemed to support a bulimia diagnosis were taken only after Schiavo had received more than a quart and a half of intravenous fluid and epinephrine, both of which can cause low potassium levels. In addition, no one who knew Schiavo had ever seen any symptoms of an eating disorder, including her husband, he said. But, during the malpractice case, one of Schiavo’s friends testified that she was aware of Terri’s bulimia, and Michael Schiavo claimed to be aware of Terri’s strange eating patterns. It is unclear whether or not Thogmartin was aware of this testimony or if the testimony itself is in dispute. Thogmartin also reported she did not appear to have suffered a heart attack and there was no evidence that she was given harmful drugs or other substances prior to her death, however according to Thogmartin, a drug overdose was unlikely but had not been ruled out. At the time, toxicology tests performed immediately afterward would not have detected an overdose of diet pills or caffeine. [94]" ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803/36 "2005-06-18T22:00:54Z")
Let’s get clear on what **threemae** is actually pitting Michael Schiavo for. Unless I’m reading the signs wrong, she is pitting him for abusing the American legal tort system. Nothing more, nothing less. By her analysis, Schiavo’s laudable actions in all other areas do not change the fact that his abuse of the medical malpractice system was a Pittable offense. Have I got that about right, **threemae**? If I have, go me. And good luck at making the case that Schiavo’s case was frivolous or otherwise without merit. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803/37 "2005-06-18T22:06:13Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Let’s get clear on what **threemae** is actually pitting Michael Schiavo for. Unless I’m reading the signs wrong, she is pitting him for abusing the American legal tort system. Nothing more, nothing less. By her analysis, Schiavo’s laudable actions in all other areas do not change the fact that his abuse of the medical malpractice system was a Pittable offense. > > Have I got that about right, **threemae**? If I have, go me. And good luck at making the case that Schiavo’s case was frivolous or otherwise without merit. Not in such strong terms, I mean I suppose that the jury would be equally responsible, but you’re entirely right that this entire pitting is only related to his medical malpractice suit. Like I’ve said before, I generally think that he’s a principled individual that stuck to his guns regarding the best interests of his wife when he could have easily walked away, and I respect that. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803/38 "2005-06-18T22:08:05Z")
Great, now where’s the abuse you speak of? ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803/39 "2005-06-18T22:09:12Z")
And I think I ought to add that you have apparently skipped over my last post in which I covered the malpractice issue… ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803/40 "2005-06-18T22:11:15Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > And I think I ought to add that you have apparently skipped over my last post in which I covered the malpractice issue… threemae will dismiss or ignore anything that would cause her to apologize or recant her spurious crackpot accusations. Much like lekatt and Mehitabel, honesty and reality need not get in the way of their ranting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ah-what-the-hell-ill-pit-michael-schiavo/308803.md?page=3)