# Ahmad Chalabi: Best Hope for Iraq or Shady Expat Puppet? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872 "2003-04-24T15:40:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872/21 "2003-04-24T19:35:38Z")
Which is just one of many problems with the operation: a lot of bad candidates for the leadership. I don’t know who would be better for this job, but at the risk of sounding unhelpful, they’d better find someone. Regardless of whether or not Molly Ivins hates him, it answers the question: he’s got a major criminal conviction on his record and doesn’t seem like the trustworthy sort. As the material SimonX posts indicates, the author of the article doesn’t change the fact that he was convicted in a huge case of fraud. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872/22 "2003-04-24T20:52:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tee \* > \*\* > Oh, no…not _political advantage._ You’re making him out to be our hand-picked President already. And if Molly Ivins hates him, he’s just gone up in my estimation. > \*\* The comment about political advantage was meant to come across as an understatement. Pardon me. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tee \* > \*\* > So does anything else the US supports. By itself, this doesn’t say much. \*\* Actually, a lot of what the US supports at least has credibility in the US. And this lack of credibility isn’t alone. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872/23 "2003-04-24T20:53:44Z")
All the expat Iraqis I know loathe Chalabi. They all say he is a crook and a criminal. Speak to them, and you will not for the life of you be able to understand why he is considered a viable option for leadership by the “West” (if indeed he is). Some trivia: apparently “chalabi” means “doggy” in Arabic. So they tell me. ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872/24 "2003-04-24T21:08:01Z")
Based on my experiences with Molly Ivin’s work, if she hates Chalabi, I consider that a major point in his favor. That being said, it’s entirely possible (even plausible) that he’s as crooked as he’s made out to be. However, it’s unlikely that we’re going to find some Iraqi George Washington lying around - someone who’s a strong leader, is well loved, and has great popular support. We’ll probably have to settle for some less-than-ideal candidate. But some sins are going to be less offensive than others. Let’s assume that Chalabi can be an effective leader, but he’s also crooked as all hell. Even if he embezzles millions, if he can pull the country together in the meantime, the embezzlement aspect of it may be as minor an issue as similar crimes are in the US. Politician steals money, word gets out, he loses the next election, and (if we’re lucky) charges are pressed. In the meantime, the people can rally behind a different candidate, and when the time comes, that candidate can take the reins in a (hopefully) peaceful manner. From what I understand of the Iraqis - and of Arabs in general - they pretty much expect corruption in their officials. Not to excuse it, but in the short term, they’ll likely be relieved that they aren’t beign systematically tortured and slaughtered, and deal with it, with an eye towards improvement in the future. At any rate, regardless of his faults, he’s the only one I’ve seen who’s even a plausible choice for leader of Iraq. The second someone shows me someone better, I’ll throw my support behind him, but for the time being, Chalabi seems the way to go. Jeff ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872/25 "2003-04-24T21:21:12Z")
Someone who graduated from MIT and earned a PhD in mathematics from the University of Chicago must be very, very smart. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872/26 "2003-04-24T22:34:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*Actually, a lot of what the US supports at least has credibility in the US. \*\* Yes, in some places. > [@](#): > > _originally posted by ElJeffe_ > **At any rate, regardless of his faults, he’s the only one I’ve seen who’s even a plausible choice for leader of Iraq. The second someone shows me someone better, I’ll throw my support behind him, but for the time being, Chalabi seems the way to go.** I seriously don’t think Chalabi is in the running to be appointed leader, but he is part of the INC and they will be a major part of the process. This is the transcript of the press conference from last night: [http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/345](http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/345) and a brief bio: [http://www.benadorassociates.com/makiya.php](http://www.benadorassociates.com/makiya.php) Some useful info in there. Kanan Makiya is another INC member and is based locally here, I don’t know why but I have a proprietary interest in him being a major player in all this. So I’m cheering him along. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872/27 "2003-04-24T23:06:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Someone who graduated from MIT and earned a PhD in mathematics from the University of Chicago must be very, very smart. Sort of like being a Rhodes Scholar. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872/28 "2003-04-24T23:18:06Z")
If huge-scale embezzlement is a minor issue in the US, that’s not a good thing (and that wouldn’t make it tolerable in Iraq). Also, if we set Iraq up with a leader or official who swindles the people out of millions, that won’t be taken well. It’ll be even worse if it’s someone who they already know is a crook. The question might run “how can America hand our money to a man they know will steal it?” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872/29 "2003-04-24T23:21:34Z")
And again, while you’re free to dislike Molly Ivins, his conviction is real (Jordan convicted him, not her, she’s just reporting a fact - and it’s not like she’s the only one who reported it, I just happend to quote her). And his shady record is also real. Doesn’t make much sense to say he must be a good leader because she thinks he’d be a bad one. Somebody (I’ll see if I can figure out who) in Iraq commented about Chalabi “they say Saddam has 300 suits. This guy has 400.” ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872/30 "2003-04-25T00:12:52Z")
Personally, I have strong doubts about the U.S. being able to find a strong claimant to be leader of Iraq. This comes from the following problem: the Ba’ath Party had ruled Iraq since the late 1960’s. EVERYONE who has experience running Iraq would be either 1) a Ba’athist (under no circumstances someone to give the power to). or 2) would be in at least in their late 60’s. Moreover, the people who are most popular and not connected with the Ba’ath Party are Kurds, who would be unacceptable for the majority of the Iraqi population. If anyone were to get the Presidency, however, Makiya might be the best pick, with Chalabi as an ambassador (but, under no circumstances, handling finances). Does anyone else have suggestions for good picks for ruler of Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872/31 "2003-04-25T01:41:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*Sort of like being a Rhodes Scholar. \*\* Getting a math PhD from the U. of Chicago is much more difficult than being a Rhodes Scholar. Very few people have that level of ability. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872/32 "2003-04-25T02:41:56Z")
If either of you guys had the kind of _cojones_ Molly Ivins has got, to be a bare knuckle straight talking liberal in Texas, you could hunt grizzly bears with a baseball bat. But she does and you…well, you’re not half the woman she is. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872/33 "2003-04-25T02:44:23Z")
But what the hell, let’s do it! Lets install ol’ Chubs, give him one of those Commandante uniforms and aviator glasses, hell,we must have a couple hundred sets of those in the warehouse. Then pull all of our troops the hell out of there. I give him about ten minutes. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872/34 "2003-04-25T02:56:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Getting a math PhD from the U. of Chicago is much more difficult than being a Rhodes Scholar. Very few people have that level of ability. And, of course, the actual point that you ignored (or, more likely, missed) is that raw intelligence is hardly the _sine qua non_ of good executive governance–especially when tied to a personality that is not particularly motivated by ethics. Somehow, the notion that a brilliant math major should be a shoo-in for the presidency strikes me as one of the more ludicrous suggestions I’ve encountered. (Especially if all the higher math is used to spread other people’s money around one’s own family’s holdings.) ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872/35 "2003-04-25T03:04:40Z")
Here’s a brief bio of Adnan Pachachi (Bajaji) from middle east [reference.org.uk](http://reference.org.uk)[Iraq’s major opposition groups](http://www.middleeastreference.org.uk/iraqiopposition.html) > [@](#): > > **Democratic Centrist Tendency (DCT)**: Led by Adnan Pachachi (Adnan Bajaji), former Iraqi foreign minister (until 1968) and ambassador to the UN (a Sunni Muslim). Pachachi is based in the UAE (Abu Dhabi), where he has acted as an advisor to Shaykh Zayyid. The DCT’s official spokesman is Ghassan al-Atiyyah, upon whom a Baghdad special court passed a death sentence in absentia in Sept00, on the grounds that he met with Israelis in a Cairo conference in Aug00; has been “disowned” by his tribe, Al Humaydat from the Shamiyah district. Husayn al-Sha’lan also has a role, and attended a meeting of the Free Iraq Council in Apr01. Was supported by the US as an alternative to the INC from the early 1990s; reemergence of interest in the DCT in Feb03, when Zalmay Khalilzad, the White House envoy, attempted to enlist Pachachi for a future Iraqi government, to sound him out possibly for a leadership role. Is still favoured by the State Department, but opposed by the Pentagon. Pachachi has declared his opposition to working with a US military governor in Iraq; the follow-up committee voted him onto their leadership council in an attempt to coopt him (2Mar03), a position he rejects. He supports a UN-administered transitional period, and is considered a liberal secular Arab nationalist Here’s the opening paragraph from an article _by_ Pachachi about post-war Iraq. > [@](#): > > [usinfo.state.gov](http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/press/0306min.htm)\*\* > Post-conflict Iraq, rather than the conflict itself, has become the focus of global attention. Two options dominate current thinking: US military rule, or a government in exile. Both are flawed and counter-productive. The former is oblivious to a vibrant Iraqi nationalism; the latter ignores the aspirations of massive anti-Ba’athist forces inside the country.\*\* Apparently there’s not as much available in English about Pachachi as there is about Chalabi. The mideast [reference.org.uk](http://reference.org.uk) site linked to above has a short who’s who of Iraqi opposition groups if anyone is interested. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872/36 "2003-04-25T03:05:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*If either of you guys had the kind of _cojones_ Molly Ivins has got, to be a bare knuckle straight talking liberal in Texas, you could hunt grizzly bears with a baseball bat. But she does and you…well, you’re not half the woman she is. \*\* What in the hell…? 😃 Nobody insulted her. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872/37 "2003-04-25T03:11:16Z")
> [@](#): > > …And if Molly Ivins hates him, he’s just gone up in my estimation. Unless, of course, I misunderstood… ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872/38 "2003-04-25T03:33:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Getting a math PhD from the U. of Chicago is much more difficult than being a Rhodes Scholar. Very few people have that level of ability. \*\* True, but brains in this case could definitely be a double-edged sword. What **tomndebb** said. Also, one of my cousins is finishing a Ph.D. in math at the U. of C. His intelligence is, to be kind, rather one-dimensional. The guy is sweet, but has no social skills whatsoever. He couldn’t figure out that it might be polite to bathe less than a week before showing up for Rosh Hashanah at my mom’s house, especially if one plans on biking from Hyde Park to Evanston (about 20 miles). And that goes double if it’s 80 degrees outside. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872/39 "2003-04-25T03:57:10Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by elucidator_ > **Unless, of course, I misunderstood…** I don’t agree often with Molly Ivins. This Houston lawyer I know cites her often in his writings, otherwise I’m not sure I’d recognize the name here (in the antithesis of Texas) where that stuff is standard fare. There’s a very good chance all things considered that what she doesn’t like, I will. Chalabi, granted, might be a bad example… Never agreeing with someone is not an insult. Having no balls and not half the woman Molly is…well I’m just not insulted either. So we’re even. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872/40 "2003-04-25T06:01:46Z")
> [@](#): > > True, but brains in this case could definitely be a double-edged sword. Well, an idiot with a lack of vision running a country isn’t so great either. Brains are a necessity; it’s that this person with brains (Chalabi) is also untrustworthy, at least to some. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ahmad-chalabi-best-hope-for-iraq-or-shady-expat-puppet/170872.md?page=3)