# AIDS' Effect on the Gay Rights Movement. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2013, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792 "2013-06-12T06:16:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/21 "2013-06-17T19:12:50Z")
The whole point of Ryan White was that he was a literal poster boy for the “Normal people can get AIDS” campaign. Why do you think we heard about him? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/22 "2013-06-17T19:46:28Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > The whole point of Ryan White was that he was a literal poster boy for the “Normal people can get AIDS” campaign. Why do you think we heard about him? Also, he was a reminder to the public that people could get HIV through no irresponsible action of their own; and, of I remember the timeline correctly, it was to shame the Red Cross for their negligent handling of the blood supply. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/23 "2013-06-17T20:23:01Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Who are the straight men being promiscuous with? Each other? Every time a straight man has promiscuous straight sex, he’s doing it with a woman who’s having promiscuous sex. > > It is true that there isn’t any such thing as a bathhouse for straight people. A bathhouse is essentially a brothel where the customers are also the sex workers. To me, promiscuous sex implies that it’s sex had without discernment. I would say that a man who has 30 opportunities for sex in a year and avails himself of all of them would be promiscuous while a woman who has 30 opportunities in the same time period but only avails herself of a few is not. By that logic, should the two engage in sex, it would be possible for the man to be promiscuous but not the woman. And my understanding is that when people say gay men are promiscuous because men are promiscuous, what they mean is that gay men, on average, have sex at the rate that straight men wish they were having sex. I dunno. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/24 "2013-06-17T23:08:41Z")
My point is simply that every time a man has sex with a woman, a woman has sex with a man. If a man goes out and picks up a woman for a meaningless one night stand, then there was a woman who picked up a man for a meaningless one night stand. Men cannot have more sex with women than women have with men. This is simple mathematics. A man cannot have 30 instances of random promiscuous sex in a year unless there were women who 30 times had random promiscuous sex with that man. It’s perfectly reasonable to imagine that men would prefer to have more random promiscuous sex than straight men actually have. And when we look at what happens when men have sex with other men, we see all sorts of things that don’t really happen when men have sex with women. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/25 "2013-06-18T01:10:55Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > My point is simply that every time a man has sex with a woman, a woman has sex with a man. Of course, with prostitution, (still much more prevalent among women than among men), one woman can supply the contact point for multiple men. It might be true that the number (or percentage) of men and women who are interested in casual sex are about equal. However, as long as there is an industry that provides members of one sex for multiple encounters with the other sex, the numbers and percentages are going to be a bit skewed in one direction. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/26 "2013-06-18T01:42:19Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Also, he was a reminder to the public that people could get HIV through no irresponsible action of their own; and, of I remember the timeline correctly, it was to shame the Red Cross for their negligent handling of the blood supply. I hope you’re not implying that gay men got AIDS in the 80s because of their “irresponsible action.” For the first several years, nobody knew that it was caused by a virus, and that it was spread through certain bodily fluids. And as far as the public’s involvement, gay men were fighting for our lives, and damn few other people gave a fuck for a long time. Then lesbians started getting involved, then Reform Jews. We’re still waiting for the Black community, who are still in denial after 30 years. > [@Lemur866](#): > > My point is simply that every time a man has sex with a woman, a woman has sex with a man. If a man goes out and picks up a woman for a meaningless one night stand, then there was a woman who picked up a man for a meaningless one night stand. Men cannot have more sex with women than women have with men. This is simple mathematics. A man cannot have 30 instances of random promiscuous sex in a year unless there were women who 30 times had random promiscuous sex with that man. Nonsense. That man can have random promiscuous sex with 30 women, each of whom had been a virgin until he seduced them. And when they discovered his true nature, swore a permanent pledge of celibacy. Men who have a high number of sex partners tend to think with their dicks, not their heads. Women tend to be different. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/27 "2013-06-18T04:48:20Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > It was the AIDS epidemic, during which a number of people, (typically in show business), were outed by the simple expedient of contracting the disease, that compelled more people to face homosexuality as a human condition, as people whom they had admired or whose performances they had enjoyed were revealed to be homosexual. Liberace, for instance. I mean, who ever would have guessed!? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/28 "2013-06-18T04:49:30Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > It harmed by providing fodder to those who declared homosexuality a “lifestyle” that was licentious without providing a foundation for genuine love. As if that were a **bad** thing. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/29 "2013-06-18T04:52:36Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > It also harmed by making gay men seem more dangerous to the general population. There was a LOT of AIDS hysteria in the early and mid 80s, fueled by ignorance of how people got infected and by general anti-gay (and very bad anti-bisexual) prejudice. Sometimes men love women And sometimes men love men Then there are bisexuals Though some just say they’re kidding themselves La-la-la-la-la-la… – Phoebe Buffay ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/30 "2013-06-18T04:53:40Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > . . . talk about quarantining or tattooing AIDS victims . . . Wasn’t that actually part of Ross Perot’s platform, at one point? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/31 "2013-06-18T04:55:08Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > In the 70’s and early 80’s, gay rights advocates generally saw themselves as establishing a counter-cultural movement that would that would defy, challenge, or at least exist apart from mainstream American culture. A generation later, they generally wanted to be inside the mainstream. They **always** wanted to be inside the mainstream. [rimshot] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/32 "2013-06-18T04:56:18Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > More to the point, homosexuals have always had the same impulse toward monogamy as heterosexuals. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/33 "2013-06-18T04:57:27Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > On an extremely cynical level, AIDS might have improved the image of homosexuals among the public and consequently strengthen the Gay Rights Movement as the sexually promiscuous culture encouraged by bathhouses and “cruising” fell out of favour due to AIDS and tended to encourage monogamous relations leading to homosexuals being seen as normal loving people. :dubious: And why should **that** have “improved their image”?! What’s wrong with promiscuity anyway?! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/34 "2013-06-18T05:05:36Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I realize the above statement may seem to be implying that gay people are somehow at fault for the consequences of AIDS, and I don’t believe Shiltz meant that at all. Even though in retrospect the resistance to CDC guidelines and all the political ground wars seem very foolish, you have to keep in mind that nobody really understood what was going on. The pieces of the puzzle were scattered all across the world. In that context, at that moment, the gay community had no reason to believe it was anything other than more oppression. Add in the fact that people were dying all around them and those who hated them were essentially celebrating their deaths, and their reaction is quite understandable. That to me is one thing that’s so gripping about the book. For the most part, you understand that everyone involved was doing what they thought was best at the time. The book isn’t really about pointing fingers so much as telling a story about one of history’s greatest tragedies. **Qin** you might consider reading it. It is extremely informative. I once heard a talk by [Gary Null,](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gary_Null) an “alternative-health” guru (generally he came across like a crank – but just plausible enough to make you feel entirely unclean about the way you’ve been living your life) on the radio arguing an [HIV-denialist](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/HIV_denial) position – he believed that AIDS was caused by the highly unusual circumstances of the newly-out gay-male lifestyle of major American urban areas in the 1970s (where and when the first cases were reported), which (by his account) involved a lot of drugs, daily sex with anonymous partners, vigorous dancing, and maybe 4 hours of sleep a night, all such behaviors tending generally to weaken the human immune system. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/35 "2013-06-18T05:12:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I remember back in high school, one of my teachers told us that the gay bar and the bathhouse were the primary institutions of gay culture. I rebutted that by that same standard, the primary institutions of straight culture were the singles bar and the brothel. > > Yeah, there were (and are) a lot of gay folks being very promiscuous. But there also were (and are) a lot of straight folks being similarly promiscuous. Errmmm . . . does the bathhouse really deserve to be equated with the brothel? It’s really more like a singles’ bar with less pretense and more steam – isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/36 "2013-06-18T05:18:34Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Male gays are much more promiscuous than male straights for the simple reason that men are much more promiscuous than women on the whole. I am inclined to believe that. The male libido might not be any more **powerful** than the female, but it is definitely more **urgent,** and less selective. However: > [@Lemur866](#): > > Who are the straight men being promiscuous with? Each other? Every time a straight man has promiscuous straight sex, he’s doing it with a woman who’s having promiscuous sex. Yes, but those women are fewer in number than promiscuous men, more’s the pity. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/37 "2013-06-18T05:20:54Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Ever wonder how much further we’d be in the fight against AIDS if we hadn’t ignored it for ten years cause only “those” people got it? Sometimes, but no answer readily suggests itself. It might well be, not one little bit further. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/38 "2013-06-18T05:22:38Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Nonsense. That man can have random promiscuous sex with 30 women, each of whom had been a virgin until he seduced them. And when they discovered his true nature, swore a permanent pledge of celibacy. Men who have a high number of sex partners tend to think with their dicks, not their heads. Women tend to be different. Ok, one man has sex with 30 women, and those women each have sex with only one man, once in their lives. And the other 29 men in the sample would have to die virgins since the women have given up on sex. The other men in the world can’t have sex with women because every time they do a woman would have to have sex with one of them. The mean number of sexual partners for straight men and straight women must always be exactly the same, unless the men are having sex with each other. And last I checked female prostitutes who service male clients are also women, so men who have sex with female prostitues do so exactly the same number of times female prostitutes have sex with men. It is a simple fact of logic that the mean number of heterosexual partners that men have must exactly equal the mean number of heterosexual partners that women have, unless you do something nonsensical like exclude female prostitutes but don’t exclude male johns. Of course the median or modal numbers could be different, but I’m talking about the mean. Think about it for a second, it is logically impossible for it to be otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/39 "2013-06-18T06:59:55Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Ok, one man has sex with 30 women, and those women each have sex with only one man, once in their lives. And the other 29 men in the sample would have to die virgins since the women have given up on sex. The other men in the world can’t have sex with women because every time they do a woman would have to have sex with one of them. Wait, are you saying that if someone has sex more than once in their entire lives, that makes them promiscuous? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/40 "2013-06-18T07:32:23Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I hope you’re not implying that gay men got AIDS in the 80s because of their “irresponsible action.” For the first several years, nobody knew that it was caused by a virus, and that it was spread through certain bodily fluids. > > And as far as the public’s involvement, gay men were fighting for our lives, and damn few other people gave a fuck for a long time. Then lesbians started getting involved, then Reform Jews. We’re still waiting for the Black community, who are still in denial after 30 years. > > Nonsense. That man can have random promiscuous sex with 30 women, each of whom had been a virgin until he seduced them. And when they discovered his true nature, swore a permanent pledge of celibacy. Men who have a high number of sex partners tend to think with their dicks, not their heads. Women tend to be different. It certainly wasnt ‘a few years’ before we knew generally how HIV was transmitted; and it was the gay activists who refused to consider closing bathhouses long after health experts knew they were a breeding ground for the disease who bear a disproportional share of blame for so many deaths. And it wasnt just HIV. It was a host of venereal disease exploding throughout the gay community. And it was greatly assisted y rampant drug usage which weakened immune systems. HIV (or GRID) was known in the gay community long before it broke mainstream. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792.md?page=3)