# AIDS' Effect on the Gay Rights Movement. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2013, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792 "2013-06-12T06:16:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/41 "2013-06-18T07:38:37Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > It certainly wasnt ‘a few years’ before we knew generally how HIV was transmitted; and it was the gay activists who refused to consider closing bathhouses long after health experts knew they were a breeding ground for the disease who bear a disproportional share of blame for so many deaths. In fairness, gay people had a highly justified distrust of the medical establishment at that time, particularly given that only a few years previous, that same establishment had been defining homosexuality itself as an illness. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/42 "2013-06-18T11:51:20Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > It certainly wasnt ‘a few years’ before we knew generally how HIV was transmitted; and it was the gay activists who refused to consider closing bathhouses long after health experts knew they were a breeding ground for the disease who bear a disproportional share of blame for so many deaths. And it wasnt just HIV. It was a host of venereal disease exploding throughout the gay community. And it was greatly assisted y rampant drug usage which weakened immune systems. HIV (or GRID) was known in the gay community long before it broke mainstream. Yeah, I read that book too, and I knew the author. Don’t believe everything you read. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/43 "2013-06-18T13:18:20Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Wait, are you saying that if someone has sex more than once in their entire lives, that makes them promiscuous? No, that is not what I’m saying. I’m saying that every time a man has an sleazy anonymous encounter with a woman, that woman is also having an sleazy anonymous encounter with a man. You can define sleazy in whatever way you like as long as you’re consistent. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/44 "2013-06-18T17:07:01Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > My point is simply that every time a man has sex with a woman, a woman has sex with a man. If a man goes out and picks up a woman for a meaningless one night stand, then there was a woman who picked up a man for a meaningless one night stand. Men cannot have more sex with women than women have with men. This is simple mathematics. A man cannot have 30 instances of random promiscuous sex in a year unless there were women who 30 times had random promiscuous sex with that man. > [@panache45](#): > > Nonsense. That man can have random promiscuous sex with 30 women, each of whom had been a virgin until he seduced them. And when they discovered his true nature, swore a permanent pledge of celibacy. It’s not nonsense, it’s just math – if we’re talking about averages. If we are, there can’t possibly be a difference (in a straight population with equal number of men and women). Take 10 men and women. 9 men have sex with two women: a “partner” and a promiscuous woman. The 10th man only has sex with the promiscuous woman. Average partners per man = 9 \* 2 + 1 / 10 = 1.9. 9 women have sex with only one man. The 10th woman is the promiscuous one. Average partners per woman = 9 + 10 / 10 = 1.9. However, above there is a difference in the medians and the modes (2 for men vs 1 for women). If that’s what you mean that there can be a difference between men and women, you’re right. But that doesn’t make what Lemur said nonsense. It’s not nonsense, it’s just ambiguous. Unless we define our terms we’re blowing smoke in any case. Forgive me for posting this a third time in about a week, but it keeps coming up. > [@](#): > > Men who have a high number of sex partners tend to think with their dicks, not their heads. Women tend to be different. Oh, what do women who have a high number of sex partners tend to think with? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/45 "2013-06-18T20:32:46Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > No, that is not what I’m saying. I’m saying that every time a man has an sleazy anonymous encounter with a woman, that woman is also having an sleazy anonymous encounter with a man. You can define sleazy in whatever way you like as long as you’re consistent. I don’t think you can define “promiscuous” as purely a numbers game, though. Motivation plays a role, too. A guy who makes a habit of seducing a woman, sleeping with her, and dumping her, would be promiscuous, but the women he’s been sleeping with, who thought that they were starting a serious relationship before the jerk dumped them, would not be promiscuous. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/46 "2013-06-18T21:31:49Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > It certainly wasnt ‘a few years’ before we knew generally how HIV was transmitted; and it was the gay activists who refused to consider closing bathhouses long after health experts knew they were a breeding ground for the disease who bear a disproportional share of blame for so many deaths. And it wasnt just HIV. It was a host of venereal disease exploding throughout the gay community. And it was greatly assisted y rampant drug usage which weakened immune systems. HIV (or GRID) was known in the gay community long before it broke mainstream. Thing is, bathhouses did not and do not spread HIV. The cultural norms about appropriate behavior in bathhouses contributed, but that could have been changed without shutting down the bathhouses entirely; the only reason not to take that approach is a belief that people shouldn’t have safe fun. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/47 "2013-06-19T07:44:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: And why should **that** have “improved their image”?! What’s wrong with promiscuity anyway?! While I do happen to disapprove of all sexual acts outside the bounds of marriage, my opinion wasn’t relevant to the statement. My point is what the _public_’s perception of homosexuals was. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792/48 "2013-06-19T20:04:42Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > Thing is, bathhouses did not and do not spread HIV. The cultural norms about appropriate behavior in bathhouses contributed, but that could have been changed without shutting down the bathhouses entirely; the only reason not to take that approach is a belief that people shouldn’t have safe fun. Of course. If just _ **being there** _ spread the virus, I would have been very, very dead more than 30 years ago. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-effect-on-the-gay-rights-movement/660792.md?page=2)