# Aids Prevention. Whats wrong with ABC? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2006, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421 "2006-08-20T04:25:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421/61 "2006-08-23T03:09:12Z")
[QUOTE=BwanaBob] If cures are found, they can line up and buy it like the rest of us; nowhere did I mention withholding medicine. [/QUOTE] But cultures don’t do bad things, people do. People do things they shouldn’t all the time. So these people should just pay for their medical care like, like who? I have never paid more than $50 (at the time, 10 hours of work) for any medical procedure in my life. Usually I pay $10. > [@](#): > > But I’d rather the children and wives get it first. Only if bad old whore-chasing dad dies, then mom and the children have to replace that lost income somehow. How are they going to do that? ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421/62 "2006-08-23T05:21:43Z")
It is useless to argue or debate with someone who is making such simplistic, mindless comments. He’s speaking out of anger and frustration and so his rant is senseless. “Culture” is not a simple thing. There isn’t any culture anywhere, that I know of, that doesn’t promote and encourage some behaviours that are harmful to themselves and sometimes others. I don’t think there is even an individual human being who is completely rational when it comes to health behavior. We know what we SHOULD be eating, but few of us follow our own advice. We all know about exercise, smoking, drinking and driving. And then there is sexual behavior… whole nother ball game. But knowing the best choice and being able to consistently act on it are two very different things for most people, regardless of what culture they come from. And it is always far easier to suggest that we let people die when they are not our family and friends, and especially if they are far away. The fact is that people in our country, who know everything about HIV and have all the resources they need to prevent infection, are still becoming infected at alarming rates. In some cases, they are lying to their new partners about their status and infecting their partners, too. Not gonna stop anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421/63 "2006-08-23T08:35:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by FRDE > …a guy I knew was ‘docked’ for medical reasons…Ironic that what appears primitive, might be sensible. [QUOTE=crowmanyclouds] While your at it maybe you could explain this,Am I reading this right, are you advocating [penectomy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penis_removal#Human_penis_removal_in_medicine_and_psychology) (castration) for African men with HIV/AIDS? CMC fnord! [/QUOTE] Er, well no, I was stalking about circumcision - but come to think about it, it might be an idea - the logistics could be a bit tricky ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421/64 "2006-08-23T11:06:01Z")
I live in Cameroon. I havn’t been here long and I am no AIDS expert, but I can tell you what I’ve seen. Cameroon doesn’t have an astonishingly high AIDS rate, but it’s still high compared to America. And of course each country- and even each region in a country- is very different. But hopefully I have something to share. First off, AIDS is a different disease here. People die all the time. Death is a part of everyday life here. The life expectancy is 50. You NEVER see people with gray hair. People are shocked that my grand parents are alive. It’s not a place where people expect to live long. And there are many, many, many diseases that kill people far more often and far more painfully than AIDS. So while AIDS is still worrying, it’s just not the biggest worry out there. Everyone is aware of AIDS and how it is spread, but given that it takes a while to kill you and there are plenty of things out there that will kill you RIGHT NOW, it doesn’t get as much attention as we give it in the US. As for the culture- it is a factor. And it’s not just going to go away. Kids have sex young. And you can’t blame them- they die young. There is no expectation of fidelity, and AIDS aside this isn’t a horrible situation for the wife. It’s just a more relaxed culture about these things and for the most part people are happy and comfortable with this. There is also polygymy, which for the most part works out but does complicate AIDS transmission. Fidelity is great, but four wives isn’t any better than four mistresses. What is the answer? Stigma is a big problem here. People don’t want to be tested. but are likely to act responsibly if they do know their AIDS status. Access to testing and treatment is also very poor in rural areas. And finally, health all around needs to be worked on. Malaria, cholera, TB and stuff like that kills all kinds of people. For example, breastfeeding women with AIDS are advised to continue breastfeeding their children despite the risk of transmission, because it’s much more dangerous to use formula mixed with the water. A lot of this kind of thing needs to be adressed before AIDS takes center stage. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421/65 "2006-08-23T14:07:39Z")
[QUOTE=JillGat] It is useless to argue or debate with someone who is making such simplistic, mindless comments. He’s speaking out of anger and frustration and so his rant is senseless. [/QUOTE] Agreed; it is the anger and frustration talking; I’ll go away now. ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421/66 "2006-08-23T16:21:10Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] Er, well no, I was stalking about circumcision - but come to think about it, it might be an idea - the logistics could be a bit tricky [/QUOTE] Now there’s the stuff of nightmares for some guys; stalking for circumcision. Thank you for your background on Cameroon, Sven. I have a friend who was in the Peace Corps there. What are you doing there? Bwana, don’t worry, I know the anger and frustration. I’ve been working in HIV/AIDS since the beginning of the epidemic. When I see very young patients coming into our clinic newly infected and also regular HIV patients coming in repeatedly with other STDs (and wonder what who they might have infected at the same time), I really want to scream. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421/67 "2006-08-24T11:41:41Z")
[QUOTE=JillGat] Now there’s the stuff of nightmares for some guys; stalking for circumcision. [/QUOTE] Oops, that was a Freudian snip [QUOTE=JillGat] Thank you for your background on Cameroon, Sven. I have a friend who was in the Peace Corps there. What are you doing there? Bwana, don’t worry, I know the anger and frustration. I’ve been working in HIV/AIDS since the beginning of the epidemic. When I see very young patients coming into our clinic newly infected and also regular HIV patients coming in repeatedly with other STDs (and wonder what who they might have infected at the same time), I really want to scream. [/QUOTE] Out of curiousity, roughly where do you work. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421/68 "2006-08-24T11:56:30Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] If their husbands won’t use condoms, isn’t it better to educate their husbands into the values of fidelity? after all these husbands are subject to the same disease. [/QUOTE] Aren’t these the same people who think having sex with a child virgin will rid them of the virus? The culture change will be a _long_ time coming. The situation is close to hopeless. From what I’ve seen regarding the AIDS pandemic in Africa, I don’t see a meaningful turnaround happening until a vaccine is developed. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421/69 "2006-08-24T14:14:05Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Aren’t these the same people who think having sex with a child virgin will rid them of the virus? [/QUOTE] I don’t know. Aren’t Americans the people who believe that Kennedy was murdered by the CIA? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421/70 "2006-08-24T17:24:24Z")
[QUOTE=saoirse] I don’t know. Aren’t Americans the people who believe that Kennedy was murdered by the CIA? [/QUOTE] Not quite sure what that has to do with the topic at hand. ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421/71 "2006-08-24T17:24:44Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] Oops, that was a Freudian snip Out of curiousity, roughly where do you work. [/QUOTE] I was involved in setting up and conducting HIV testing when it was first available, a variety of volunteer positions in an AIDS services agency, testing, contact tracing and partner notification in a regional public health clinic, HIV/STD health education here and in the Caribbean, HIV/AIDS epidemiologist in the US and then in the eastern Caribbean, and now doing HIV clinical research (testing new therapies) in an HIV clinic in the US. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421/72 "2006-08-24T17:46:52Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Not quite sure what that has to do with the topic at hand. [/QUOTE] Not so much the topic at hand as your question. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421/73 "2006-08-24T17:53:24Z")
Sorry, I should be clearer. If you’re question begins, “Aren’t these the people who…” then your answer is no. Unless it’s “Aren’t these the people who live in Sub-Saharan Africa.” ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421/74 "2006-08-24T18:30:11Z")
[QUOTE=saoirse] Sorry, I should be clearer. If you’re question begins, “Aren’t these the people who…” then your answer is no. Unless it’s “Aren’t these the people who live in Sub-Saharan Africa.” [/QUOTE] I was referring to the fact that it’s rather difficult to teach old dogs new tricks when they still belive in hocus-pocus and voodoo. The educational process with regard to AIDS in Africa is an uphill battle. At any rate, it was on topic; your comment wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421/75 "2006-08-24T19:56:17Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] I was referring to the fact that it’s rather difficult to teach old dogs new tricks when they still belive in hocus-pocus and voodoo. The educational process with regard to AIDS in Africa is an uphill battle. At any rate, it was on topic; your comment wasn’t. [/QUOTE] My question was on point once you asked yours, which was rather stupid and fairly insulting. The point of my response was that “they” are no more inclined to believe in “hocus-pocus” and vodoo than you are. And by the way, get it straight: African animists believe in Mumbo-Jumbo. Roman Catholics believe in Hocus-Pocus. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421/76 "2006-08-24T21:52:47Z")
[QUOTE=saoirse] My question was on point once you asked yours, which was rather stupid and fairly insulting. The point of my response was that “they” are no more inclined to believe in “hocus-pocus” and vodoo than you are. And by the way, get it straight: African animists believe in Mumbo-Jumbo. Roman Catholics believe in Hocus-Pocus. [/QUOTE] Actually, they are more inclined to believe it than I am. [http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2002/april/virgin.htm](http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2002/april/virgin.htm) [http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/444213](http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/444213) My rhetorical question was neither stupid nor insulting. It was factual. Your response, however STILL has no relevance to the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421/77 "2006-08-24T22:39:55Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Actually, they are more inclined to believe it than I am. [http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2002/april/virgin.htm](http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2002/april/virgin.htm) [http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/444213](http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/444213) [/QUOTE] One of your links requires registration, and the other talks specifically about the situation in South Africa, which is rather infamous for bungling it’s approach to fighting AIDS. In your original comment, you were apparently refering to the entire continent, instead of just the Southernmost tip of it. So your original comment remains a broad, unsupported generalization, or more harshly, “stupid and insulting,” as highlighted by **saoirse** ’s satirical reply. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421/78 "2006-08-25T00:54:34Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] One of your links requires registration, and the other talks specifically about the situation in South Africa, which is rather infamous for bungling it’s approach to fighting AIDS. In your original comment, you were apparently refering to the entire continent, instead of just the Southernmost tip of it. So your original comment remains a broad, unsupported generalization, or more harshly, “stupid and insulting,” as highlighted by **saoirse** ’s satirical reply. [/QUOTE] It’s _not_ unsupported, and my link did not refer to only South Africa. While it apparently occurs in higher numbers in South Africa, it is by no means the only place it’s happening. From the first link: > [@](#): > > In the first instance, we must examine the culturally-specific belief system, \*\*which is not confined to South Africa as is popularly conceived, nor to the African continent as a whole, but is found to exist in most other developing countries with large numbers of HIV/Aids positive people in their populations. \*\* > > **India,** with an estimated 3 million plus HIV/Aids sufferers, along with **Thailand** , both largely patriarchal societies, also has entrenched the so-called Virgin Cure within its belief systems. > > The myth of the Virgin Cure has a rich and culturally diverse history stretching back to 16th century Europe, and more prominently to be found in 19th century Victorian England, where, in spite of the emphasis on morality, rectitude and family values, there existed a widespread belief, that sexual intercourse with a virgin was a cure for syphilis, gonnorhea, [and other STD’s]. Syphilis, like HIV/Aids, was fatal in its terminal stages. In the Eastern Cape of South Africa, when a significant outbreak of STD’s was spread by troops returning home from overseas after WWII, the Virgin Cure was widely sought among the population. The second link (which does not require registration when you google it) does concentrate specifically on South Africa, but so what? It happens to be the most glaring example of the problem, so I used it. From the second link: > [@](#): > > The raping of infants and/or children may also be due to the belief that sex with a child or baby will cure AIDS. Virginity testing is growing and many times occurs in school. Girls must lie on their backs with their pants and underwear off and legs in the air, preferably on a sloped floor (IRIN HIV/AIDS Weekly, 2001). A survey in East London, South Africa, by the University of South Africa found that 18% of 498 workers believed that sex with a virgin could cure AIDS (South Africa: Virgins, victims…, 2002). The gist of my statement, which you apparently missed, is that in places where men hold all the power, and believe in mystical cures for disease, the concepts of fidelity and protected sex are probably not going to have much of an impact. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421/79 "2006-08-25T10:26:35Z")
It is not helped by the Catholic Church sloshing money around and telling people not to wear condoms. [http://www.abstinenceafrica.com/library/index.php?entryid=2161](http://www.abstinenceafrica.com/library/index.php?entryid=2161) This rather curious cite describes the Ugandan President doing an about face and /advocating/ condoms ‘at the closing of a Catholic conference’ Then it goes on to say: |In December, 2004, Ugandan First Lady, Janet Museveni excoriated such organizations for their insistence on the ‘safe-sex’ dogma. In January 2004, Mrs. Museveni told the young people of Uganda that they should not listen to those pushing free sex and condoms. | I think President Museveni might have got a severe earbashing from his good lady, I’ve heard a number of times that she had her snout in the Catholic collection plate. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421/80 "2006-08-25T13:41:37Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] I think President Museveni might have got a severe earbashing from his good lady, I’ve heard a number of times that she had her snout in the Catholic collection plate. [/QUOTE] I’d heard she had her snout under the cassock, but to each his own slander. [QUOTE=Kalhoun] In the first instance, we must examine the culturally-specific belief system, \*\*which is not confined to South Africa \*\* as is popularly conceived, nor to the African continent as a whole… The myth of the Virgin Cure has a rich and culturally diverse history stretching back to 16th century Europe, and more prominently to be found in 19th century **Victorian England** … [/QUOTE] So the answer is, no, they are not the people who believe that. Apparently we are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aids-prevention-whats-wrong-with-abc/369421.md?page=5)