# Air combat as depicted in the movie Flyboys **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 20, 2008, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700 "2008-10-20T02:59:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sky\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Sky\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sky_King)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700/21 "2008-10-20T17:32:40Z")
Waaaay back, before computer simulations, I had an Avalon Hill board game called “Richtofen’s War” which simulated WWI aerial combat. The documentation stated that in their research for the game the creators were surprised at how quickly aircraft of that era could turn…and that rotary engine craft could turn much more quickly in one direction than the other. Airframe failures in the game were caused more by overspeeding in a dive than tight maneuvering. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700/22 "2008-10-20T17:58:58Z")
I played “Richtofen’s War” with friends from school! Good Times. I always “flew” the SE5a. The SE5a was one of the fastest planes of the war, well if you call 135 MPH fast. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700/23 "2008-10-20T18:08:21Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > That’s not completely true, most rotary engines did have a carburetor that allowed adjustment of the mixture, usually just the fuel flow. They where very crappy at it though. > Blipping the engine was mostly done for landings. I’ve always wondered how the controls for a rotary engine worked. From what I can gather, the fuel/air misture was fed into the crankcase, so there must have been some hollow, non-rotating connection from the airframe to the engine. But that’s about as far as I’ve got. How did the mixture get into the cylinders? (Was there a valve in the piston, or an intake pipe from the crankcase to the head, and where was the intake valve?) How was the ignition timed and controlled? (Was there some sort of sliding, concentric contact for each spark plug, or did the engine function like the rotor inside a distributor?) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700/24 "2008-10-20T18:49:24Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I’ve always wondered how the controls for a rotary engine worked. From what I can gather, the fuel/air misture was fed into the crankcase, so there must have been some hollow, non-rotating connection from the airframe to the engine. But that’s about as far as I’ve got. > > How did the mixture get into the cylinders? (Was there a valve in the piston, or an intake pipe from the crankcase to the head, and where was the intake valve?) > > How was the ignition timed and controlled? (Was there some sort of sliding, concentric contact for each spark plug, or did the engine function like the rotor inside a distributor?) The mixture was drawn through the crankcase by tubes to the cylinder head. If you get a chance to see one of these they have an interesting valvetrain. One rod activates both valves. Not sure on the ignition was set up but the contacts only need to be set up to accomodate a range of timing just like a car distributor would. When electronic ignition came online you could see the tips of the rotors were widened to allow greater spark adjustment. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700/25 "2008-10-20T19:03:11Z")
What was the purpose of the WWI biplanes? I get that they fought each other but why were they needed in the first place? Did they drop bombs? Used for Surveillance? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700/26 "2008-10-20T19:12:48Z")
Air observation of troop massing in the trenches, and artillery spotting. Like modern satellites, the amount of useful information from above was pretty staggering. The combat aircraft evolved to contest enemy observation/spotting and to protect one’s own. Sailboat ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700/27 "2008-10-20T19:17:27Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Air observation of troop massing in the trenches, and artillery spotting. Like modern satellites, the amount of useful information from above was pretty staggering. > > The combat aircraft evolved to contest enemy observation/spotting and to protect one’s own. > > Sailboat They did also go on bombing runs. Its pretty amazing how similar WWI and WWII aerial operations were, complete with night time bombing raids. ---
**Author:** ![puppygod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@puppygod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puppygod)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700/28 "2008-10-20T19:39:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Vickers had a 250 round belt, as did the German version of the Maxim. > > The Lewis gun (the one on the Top wing aka the one with the drum mag) had a 47 round magazine. I wasn’t sure about French aircraft application (I thought that they used different caliber, maybe Lebel?, and possibly in other length of belt), but further googling shows that you are indeed correct. Early French aircrafts used aerial Vickers mk.II in British .303 caliber to ensure compatibility. So, you need to multiply probabilities by factor of 2.5. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700/29 "2008-10-20T19:55:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The mixture was drawn through the crankcase by tubes to the cylinder head. If you get a chance to see one of these they have an interesting valvetrain. One rod activates both valves. Not sure on the ignition was set up but the contacts only need to be set up to accomodate a range of timing just like a car distributor would. When electronic ignition came online you could see the tips of the rotors were widened to allow greater spark adjustment. Which reminds me of something definitely not shown on the movie… Rotary engines spewed oil continuously, it just went through them and out the exhaust. They used castor oil and the pilots got soaked by it. So not only would the flyboys landed looking like a coal miner from the chest up, before delivering a single somber line about their lost comrades, they would have scrambled to the nearest latrine. ---
**Author:** ![Sky\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Sky\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sky_King)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700/30 "2008-10-20T20:58:59Z")
Ah, but the castor in the slipstream was noted…its laxative effects were what had the one pilot running for the bathroom after a landing! ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700/31 "2008-10-20T21:22:41Z")
> [@Sky\_King](#): > > Ah, but the castor in the slipstream was noted…its laxative effects were what had the one pilot running for the bathroom after a landing! Wasn’t it that the guy wanted to puke after going through his first combat sortie? ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700/32 "2008-10-20T22:23:22Z")
That was one of the reasons for the dashing scarf, not to look good but to wipe the spewing oil from your goggles Wikis to some WW1 Bombers. > **[Gotha G.V](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotha_G.V)** > > The Gotha G.V was a heavy bomber used by the Luftstreitkräfte (Imperial German Air Service) during World War I. Designed for long-range service and built by Gothaer Waggonfabrik AG, the Gotha G.V was used principally as a night bomber. > Operational use of the Gotha G.IV demonstrated that the incorporation of the fuel tanks into the engine nacelles was a mistake. In a crash landing the tanks could rupture and spill fuel onto the hot engines. This posed a serious problem because landing accidents c... > **[Handley Page Type O](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handley_Page_Type_O)** > > The Handley Page Type O was a biplane bomber used by Britain during the First World War. When built, the Type O was the largest aircraft that had been built in the UK and one of the largest in the world. There were two main variants, the Handley Page O/100 (H.P.11) and the Handley Page O/400 (H.P.12). > The aircraft were used in France for tactical night attacks on targets in German-occupied France and Belgium and for strategic bombing of industrial and transport targets in the Rhineland. Some ... This is a picture of a Caproni Bomber I took myself at the Air Force Museum > **[News, Politics, Sports, Mail & Latest Headlines](https://www.aol.com/)** > > Discover the latest breaking news in the U.S. and around the world — politics, weather, entertainment, lifestyle, finance, sports and much more. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700/33 "2008-10-20T23:44:35Z")
Sure, there were bombers. Note that bombing developed later in the war after observation aircraft and “pursuit” (fighters), and was always the least important function of aircraft in terms of war-winning (in WWI…not necessarily so afterward). Sailboat ---
**Author:** ![regginbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ba9def/32.png) [@regginbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/regginbrow)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700/34 "2008-10-20T23:46:06Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Not that I’m aware of; but I’m sure it happened. One of my favourite WWII photographs is of an English man sitting outside reading the paper as the RAF and Luftwaffe fight overhead. He’s got a gigantic sun umbrella set up over him and the ground around him is covered in scattered empty brass cartridges ejecting from the planes above. You wouldn’t have a link to this picture handy, would you? I tried some googling but I can’t seem to find it on the interwebs. ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700/35 "2008-10-21T00:52:10Z")
> [@regginbrow](#): > > You wouldn’t have a link to this picture handy, would you? I tried some googling but I can’t seem to find it on the interwebs. Yeah, count me in as a second. . . I’d like a picture like this. 😃 Tripler No, seriously! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700/36 "2008-10-21T00:58:29Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > This is a picture of a Caproni Bomber I took myself at the Air Force Museum > > [News, Politics, Sports, Mail & Latest Headlines - AOL.com](http://hometown.aol.com/dn736/images/p1010010a.jpg) Note what the pilots were using as a seatback in this plane. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700/37 "2008-10-21T05:20:54Z")
> [@regginbrow](#): > > You wouldn’t have a link to this picture handy, would you? I tried some googling but I can’t seem to find it on the interwebs. It was in a book or glossy magazine thingy put out by the Imperial War Museum to commemorate the 50th Anniversary of the Battle of Britain; I’ll have to see if Dad has a copy somewhere (he’s an Aviation historian). BTW, a 97 round magazine was developed for the Lewis Gun to enable it to be used more efficiently by aircrews; even with a [Foster Mounting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foster_mounting) it was still problematic fly and reload at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700/38 "2008-10-22T00:46:30Z")
[http://www.aviation-history.com/engines/rotary-theory.htm](http://www.aviation-history.com/engines/rotary-theory.htm) This link goes rather deeply into the operation of rotary engines. You may have to type this link into your browser; every time I try to “insert link” some wierd and wonderful stuff happens. It is to be assumed that I’m dong something wrong - any advice would be helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700/39 "2008-10-22T00:47:42Z")
Well, well, well. After submiting the message the link seems to be OK. It’s nice to do womething right accidentally! ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700/40 "2008-10-22T00:48:50Z")
W is way too close to S. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-combat-as-depicted-in-the-movie-flyboys/468700.md?page=1)