# Air France Crash (2009): Investigators homing in on black boxes **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 7, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672 "2010-05-07T19:15:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/41 "2011-05-02T12:18:02Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > More like it’s in the middle of the Atlantic and it takes awhile for the boat to get back to shore. I’m sure they’re moving with reasonable haste. I guess we’ll have to wait until helicopters are invented. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/42 "2011-05-02T12:27:22Z")
I don’t believe there are any helicopters with the range to fly from the site of the wreckage to shore. It really is out in the middle of nowhere. Also, there may not be any sort of helipad on the recovery ship. Really, it’s better to take a few more days to get it safely to shore than risk losing it in yet another crash, right? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/43 "2011-05-02T14:20:05Z")
Agreed. I’m sure they’re at least as eager as we are to find out what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/44 "2011-05-04T04:47:53Z")
[Voice recorder found.](http://www.southcoasttoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110504/NEWS/105040320/-1/NEWSMAP) > [@](#): > > The condition of the recorders was not immediately clear. BEA officials have warned that the recordings may yet prove unusable, considering they spent nearly two years under high pressures. > [@](#): > > “If the black boxes are readable, in three weeks we can hope to know part of the truth,” Transport Minister Thierry Mariani said on RTL radio. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/45 "2011-05-04T07:23:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The Lancaster could lift 3 times what a DC3 could. Oddly, they built it as a combo aircraft so the passenger size was smaller than a DC3. Well, then, it’s great for carrying dense cargo or extremely obese passengers…probably more relevant for latter today’s air traveler. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/46 "2011-05-04T10:20:11Z")
Can someone explain to me why this particular crash is of interest to so many US citizens? ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/47 "2011-05-04T10:43:50Z")
I think it’s of interest to many people, regardless of nationality. People are concerned about the safety of air travel, and therefore eager to know the causes of any major accidents. Many people are just interested in aviation in general. And obviously this is a predominantly American board. If what you’re getting at (I’m not saying that it is) is that Americans are keen to find fault with an Airbus design, I don’t think that’s it. There would be just as much interest in the unexplained loss of a Boeing. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/48 "2011-05-04T10:50:44Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > I think it’s of interest to many people, regardless of nationality. People are concerned about the safety of air travel, and therefore eager to know the causes of any major accidents. Many people are just interested in aviation in general. And obviously this is a predominantly American board. > > If what you’re getting at (I’m not saying that it is) is that Americans are keen to find fault with an Airbus design, I don’t think that’s it. There would be just as much interest in the unexplained loss of a Boeing. Lol, no, hadnt crossed my mind. I was just wondering if that flight had a lot of Americans on board, and so, was getting more attention in the US. I just couldnt understand, out of this explanation, why you guys were having an interest in it. I’m hearing more about the case here than on French television. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/49 "2011-05-04T11:16:37Z")
I’m a pilot, so I tend to have more interest than average in air crashes. There are a couple of us on the Dope, and we tend to show up in these threads. There were 2 Americans on board out of 200+, so the interest is not from loss of American life. Partly, it’s the concerns about the safety of air travel which extends across nationalities. Partly, it’s because decent people have empathy for others regardless of nationality. The crash is puzzling because there is no obvious clue as to what happened from what evidence we currently have. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/50 "2011-05-04T12:00:38Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > …If what you’re getting at (I’m not saying that it is) is that Americans are keen to find fault with an Airbus design, I don’t think that’s it. There would be just as much interest in the unexplained loss of a Boeing. Actually, I think it _IS_ that to an extent. Airbus was the first contender to take away serious business from Boeing, and was perceived as an upstart and a threat. And their have been suspicions (maybe superstitions?) that they were dangerous substandard aircraft that shouldn’t be sharing the same airspace. And this is particularly true of the fly-by-wire software. Airbus has had… well, I’m not sure how many, but certainly more than one crash that has been attributed to software failure. That’s particularly scary because it raises the specter of planes flying themselves into the ground regardless of what the pilots do. Reading this over, I would say this isn’t the attitude of the public, who don’t know this level of detail. Perhaps it’s more accurate to say it’s the attitude of American aviation reporters who generate the stories. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/51 "2011-05-04T12:11:05Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The crash is puzzling because there is no obvious clue as to what happened from what evidence we currently have. Just a day or so before the first box was found, I watched a NOVA episode that I think came out just this year about the crash. NOVA is not known for wild speculation, and they (or their sources) theorized that due to stormier conditions than anticipated (a big storm was behind a small one and their radar was minimal), all 3 pitot sensors shut down, clogged with ice. Then the autopilot, not being able to navigate without airspeed, disengaged, leading to some pilot errors and a stall. If you haven’t watched this show, I hope you can do so and give us the benefit of your pilot experience to critique it. My flying experience is very limited, but it sounded quite plausible to me. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/52 "2011-05-04T12:48:07Z")
I’ll try to find that episode and if I can say anything intelligent about it I’ll come back and post. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/53 "2011-05-04T12:52:11Z")
It’s called _The Crash of Flight 447_. [Here it is](http://video.pbs.org/video/1685933496). ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/54 "2011-05-04T12:55:34Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Just a day or so before the first box was found, I watched a NOVA episode that I think came out just this year about the crash. NOVA is not known for wild speculation, and they (or their sources) theorized that due to stormier conditions than anticipated (a big storm was behind a small one and their radar was minimal), all 3 pitot sensors shut down, clogged with ice. Haven’t seen the show, but wouldn’t the pitot tubes [all be equipped with anti-ice heating systems?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitot_tube#Operation) Or is the heat not turned on at all times? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/55 "2011-05-04T13:04:27Z")
Even if pitot heat is on full blast it is possible to have weather conditions sufficiently severe that the heating system can be overwhelmed and the tube ice over. Just one of the many reasons pilots are supposed to avoid flying into severe weather. Of course, weather being unpredictable, sometimes that happens anyway. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Niply\_Elder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@The\_Niply\_Elder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Niply_Elder)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/56 "2011-05-04T15:00:15Z")
About that NOVA episode, if I recall correctly they said that the margin of error to prevent a stall is 5 mph speed different. Is this right? Maybe they didn’t explain it right, but they distinctly left the impression that at any moment the airplane could stall, which seemed really sensationalistic. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/57 "2011-05-04T15:31:07Z")
> [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > About that NOVA episode, if I recall correctly they said that the margin of error to prevent a stall is 5 mph speed different. Is this right? Maybe they didn’t explain it right, but they distinctly left the impression that at any moment the airplane could stall, which seemed really sensationalistic. Under some conditions near the edge of the flight envelope, this is true. > **[Coffin corner (aerodynamics)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffin_corner_(aviation))** > > Coffin corner (also known as the aerodynamic ceiling or Q corner) is the region of flight where a fast but subsonic fixed-wing aircraft's stall speed is near the critical Mach number, making it very difficult to keep an airplane in stable flight. Because the stall speed is the minimum speed required to maintain level flight, any reduction in speed will cause the airplane to stall and lose altitude. Because the critical Mach number is the maximum speed at which air can travel over the wings wit Th... ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/58 "2011-05-04T15:34:40Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Can someone explain to me why this particular crash is of interest to so many US citizens? As others have said, it’s of interest to many people around the world because it’s so puzzling. Plenty of us travel on long trans-oceanic flights all the time. To have one drop out of the sky right in the middle of the flight – not near takeoff or landing – is very strange. We’d sure like to know the cause, so that it can be prevented. ---
**Author:** ![J-P\_L](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/j-p_l/32/3156_2.png) [@J-P\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/J-P_L)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/59 "2011-05-04T15:52:05Z")
Now that the black boxes have been found, any words on some attempt at retrieving the bodies. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/60 "2011-05-04T16:25:16Z")
Yes. When the chassis to the FDR was found there was mention in the French media (not so sure about English - as I have some ability with French I’ve been following a lot of this through _Le Monde)_ that remains would be recovered where feasible, but they were in extremely bad shape. I’ll avoid grisly details, but suffice to say that there are scavengers and bacteria down there, they’re hungry, and they’ve had a couple years to work on the bodies. It can’t be pretty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672.md?page=4)