# Air France Crash (2009): Investigators homing in on black boxes **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 7, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672 "2010-05-07T19:15:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/81 "2011-05-08T14:57:01Z")
[Here’s an excellent, lengthy article from the NY Times,](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/magazine/mag-08Plane-t.html) by Wil S. Hylton, not only about causes of the crash, but how the most recent search and recovery was done, and some of the emotional problems with body recovery. From that article: The pitot tubes on the plane were a design known as AA, which had been superseded by an AB design. 18 months before the crash, there were suggestions that the AB design resisted adverse weather conditions better, but Air France didn’t swap them, saying that the evidence was inconclusive. Shortly before the crash, it became evident that the ABs were indeed better, and new parts were in the warehouse, ready to install. Air France didn’t appear to be in any hurry to do so. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/82 "2011-05-08T16:47:33Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > [Here’s an excellent, lengthy article from the NY Times,](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/magazine/mag-08Plane-t.html) by Wil S. Hylton, not only about causes of the crash, but how the most recent search and recovery was done, and some of the emotional problems with body recovery. Yeah, that’s a good article. I read it yesterday myself. Airline pilot Patrick Smith, who writes Salon’s “Ask The Pilot” column, was a bit critical this week of the NOVA program’s discussion about “coffin corner” and the speed margin of error. He also, as he often does, noted the tendency to the media to look for simple answers when it comes to aviation issues, and said: > [@](#): > > What makes this such a tough and perhaps unsatisfying story, however, is that the “cause” of the accident won’t be anything simple. People want an easy, all-in-one explanation: Turbulence crashed the plane. A sensor malfunction crashed the plane. The pilots “lost control.” But it won’t be any of those things. Or, more correctly, it’s liable to be all of them, laced together in a cascade of events that was as complicated as it was unlikely. The column is [here](http://www.salon.com/technology/ask_the_pilot/2011/05/06/air_france_black_box_found/index.html). ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/83 "2011-05-08T18:01:54Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > that was as complicated as it was unlikely I thought that the whole point of the interest in the Air France crash was that it seemed Air France made a lot of bad decisions, at least that’s the impression I had from reading this thread. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/84 "2011-05-08T19:23:09Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > I thought that the whole point of the interest in the Air France crash was that it seemed Air France made a lot of bad decisions, at least that’s the impression I had from reading this thread. That could be right, but even if it is, it doesn’t negate the probability that the crash was still a result of a very unlucky and unusual combination of circumstances. Planes generally don’t just fall out of the sky from cruising altitude. Even with some bad decisions by Air France, the plane itself was probably not unsafe, in any meaningful sense of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/85 "2011-05-08T21:28:17Z")
Bad things can just happen, and sometimes too many bad things can happen one after another in a very short time. Pilots are only human. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/86 "2011-05-08T23:15:40Z")
> [@trupa](#): > > Thanks for clarifying this guys. As a mere aviation enthusiast, I had assumed that pilots who learn in small aircraft would take the throttle lever position as an indication of actual setting. As a small airplane pilot I have to correct you on this - I was taught to look at engine instruments (rpm, temp, etc. - whatever gauges for whatever engine(s) you have) and notice actual performance, not look at throttle position. This was true for some of the weird aircraft I’ve flown in the ultralight and homebuilt category where, for instance, the throttle was largely obscured by one’s thigh or located such that one would require a transparent forearm to really see it clearly without moving about quite a bit, but even in more typical small airplanes it really was all about what the instruments/actual performance was telling you than where the lever or knob was. It’s not that you _never_ look at the throttle, it’s just that normally there is no reason to do so, and in an emergency I’d be much more inclined to look at engine gauges than throttle. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/87 "2011-05-08T23:54:50Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Bad things can just happen, and sometimes too many bad things can happen one after another in a very short time. Pilots are only human. After reading [this](http://www.salon.com/technology/ask_the_pilot/2005/07/01/near_miss/), I see what you mean. There are old pilots, bold pilots, and aroused pilots . . . but there are no old, bold, aroused pilots. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/88 "2011-05-09T00:15:15Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > From that article: The pitot tubes on the plane were a design known as AA, which had been superseded by an AB design. 18 months before the crash, there were suggestions that the AB design resisted adverse weather conditions better, but Air France didn’t swap them, saying that the evidence was inconclusive. Shortly before the crash, it became evident that the ABs were indeed better, and new parts were in the warehouse, ready to install. Air France didn’t appear to be in any hurry to do so. I think it’s a bit unfair on Air France to suggest they were lax in getting the new pitots fitted to the fleet. It is quite normal for an airline to perform non-critical upgrades to its fleet as each aircraft goes in for scheduled maintenance. “But surely a pitot tube replacement is critical?” you might ask. With the benefit of hindsight it seems it probably was critical, but prior to the crash no one had deemed the current pitot tubes to be unsafe, no one had removed their certification, and no one had mandated that all AA tubes be replaced with the AB tubes immediately. Given that no one else was particularly concerned with pitot tube replacement, it seems harsh on Air France to suggest they should have been. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/89 "2011-05-16T15:10:30Z")
Well, CNN today reports that the data on both recorders was recovered, and that investigators expect to have some results in “several weeks”. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/90 "2011-05-16T15:18:51Z")
Yep, saw it on the BBC and Le Monde as well - all the flight data and the final two hours of cockpit voice conversation. Here’s hoping there are some answers in all that. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/91 "2011-05-16T19:41:07Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > … all the flight data and the final two hours of cockpit voice conversation. Here’s hoping there are some answers in all that. I’d say there would pretty much have to be. If that much data doesn’t produce some answers, this will have to rank among the greatest aviation mysteries ever. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/92 "2011-05-16T23:50:56Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > I’d say there would pretty much have to be. If that much data doesn’t produce some answers, this will have to rank among the greatest aviation mysteries ever. At the least it should reveal the “whats” of the sequence of events leading to the loss; but that would likely still require expert interpretation to get at the “whys”. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/93 "2011-05-17T03:55:50Z")
I too, read that all of the data has been recovered. If that’s true, it’s not going to do Honeywell any harm! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/94 "2011-05-17T04:59:45Z")
I’d hate to have to be the one to listen to the cockpit voice recorder. That would be like living through your worst nightmare. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/95 "2011-05-17T05:09:28Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > At the least it should reveal the “whats” of the sequence of events leading to the loss; but that would likely still require expert interpretation to get at the “whys”. Fine detail about what happened could make “why?” reasonably easy to answer. In particular, the cockpit voice recorder should give good information about what the pilots were thinking and doing, which ought to be enlightening. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/96 "2011-05-17T22:47:58Z")
The crash happened at something like 3AM, a number of hours into a long flight over a stretch of ocean without even many other airplanes in radio range. Crew alertness has to have been a factor in their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/97 "2011-05-17T23:09:41Z")
Eh, maybe, maybe not. We don’t know why it crashed. Until we do, there’s no way to be certain “crew alertness” was a factor. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/98 "2011-05-18T01:22:40Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The crash happened at something like 3AM, a number of hours into a long flight over a stretch of ocean without even many other airplanes in radio range. Crew alertness has to have been a factor in their actions. I don’t think it mattered. They probably had every warning buzzer and light going off at once or in such a rapid succession that it closed that small time window needed to stabilize the air speed. The 3 most important things to be aware of in a cockpit is airspeed, airspeed and airspeed. But if you don’t realize in time that the airspeed indicator is gone or that the computer just made things worse prior to losing the airspeed indicator then it’s like driving by a snow covered sign announcing the bridge is out ahead and then seeing 20 emergency vehicles in your rear view mirror. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/99 "2011-05-18T07:01:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t think it mattered. They probably had every warning buzzer and light going off at once or in such a rapid succession that it closed that small time window needed to stabilize the air speed. The problem with long haul flying, or any flying really, is that you spend a lot of time at a low state of arousal. When you’re not very alert because nothing much is happening your ability to perform on demand is greatly reduced. You can have all sorts of bells and whistles telling you what’s going on, but you won’t respond as well as if you’d just taken off and were already at a moderate state of arousal. This isn’t a failing of any kind for the crew, it’s just what happens when you have long periods with nothing happening. Low alertness is probably a factor, but whether or not it was a significant factor is unknown as yet. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672/100 "2011-05-18T11:14:14Z")
They were flying through bad weather - I wouldn’t be so quick to assume “there was nothing much to do” until the crap hit the fan. They may have been more busy than usual for quite some time given conditions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/air-france-crash-2009-investigators-homing-in-on-black-boxes/538672.md?page=6)