Speaking of doctors, I remember some news stories from a decade or so ago about medical interns and their lack of sleep. It isn’t uncommon for new doctors to go for 24 or more hours without sleep, and, can you believe it, a lack of sleep can be detrimental to their decision making capabilities. Even with some evidence that this was the case, older doctors didn’t want to change the system because they figured if they had to go through it then the new doctors should as well. Are other occupations where mental acuity is necessary to maintain for safety’s sake improving on letting their employees sleep?
Ehhh, you young whippersnappers are such wimps. Why, I can remember when WE had to walk 16 miles to school in the snow. Up hill. Both ways.
On the other hand, even when doctors in training are on 36 hour long shifts they ARE allowed to nap during slow times. Something ATC will not be allowed to do, even in circumstances where it would have a positive impact on safety because, I guess, allowing someone a 20 minute nap during a scheduled break time “looks bad” or something. :rolleyes:
Personally, I’d rather they be allowed controlled and scheduled naps than risk having them nod off unexpectedly.
My nephew is an ATC and tells me anyone who took a nap, on shift, would instantly lose his job! His schedule is nothing like I hear being described in these news articles. Of course, he’s working in the country’s busiest airport, but still. It doesn’t happen everywhere, just so you know.
Well, I can tell you that the airlines are vehemently opposed to legislation letting their pilots get more than 8 hours sleep, and the FAA, for some reason, seems more inclined to listen to industry shills and lobbyists, rather than the pilots, pilot organizations, OR the NTSB, who has had revision of rest rules as a “most wanted” item for over 20 YEARS.
Recently, a set of revised rules has been making its way through legislative process. (Finally!) Once again, it’s being shot down as too expensive for the airlines, safety be damned. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-01/pilot-fatigue-rule-may-stall-after-u-s-house-lawmakers-attach-conditions.html As it stands today, pilot rest rules provide for as little as 8 hours of rest.
8 Hours doesn’t sound too bad, until you realize that that time includes everything from engine shutdown to arriving at the airplane the next morning.
20 minutes or so to deplane, grab bags, and otherwise put the airplane to bed, another 10-30 minutes for a hotel shuttle to arrive, another 10-30 minute drive to the hotel. Check-in, and dragging your bags to your room, another 5-20 minutes depending on how busy the desk is. Add an hour to set up your toiletries for the next morning, shower, iron a shirt, (maybe) eat something, and wind down enough to sleep.
Now do this in reverse the next morning. 30-60 minutes to wake up, shower, pack and dress (and maybe eat). 10-30 minute van ride, another 20 minutes or more to get though security and to our gate.
It’s very easy to turn an 8 hour layover into 6 or less hours of sleep. I probably average 5 or so, rarely more than 6. And while the human body does pretty well compensating for an occasional lack of sleep, over time, the sleep debt does add up. Add to that 15 or 16 hour work days, and to me it seems obvious that revisiting the rules is in order.
I am starting to think that the FAA controllers started to “fall asleep” in the most conspicuous manor once the problem was out in the open - ie after the first couple of incidents.
This is a HUGE problem and has been ignored for WAY too long. I fly for FedEx, which means I have some weird schedules. I can take off from Memphis at 3 PM or 3 AM, going to Kansas City or Paris. Managing sleep and my rest is one of the most important things I do. I have talked to FAA controllers in Memphis, and the schedules they have would be illegal for pilots. Shifts that move forward with only 8-hour breaks are the norm.
The FAA controllers are sharp people and know their stuff, but no one is sharpest after changing sleep cycles three times. We need to either get some realistic rest rules for controllers or privatize the whole thing, but have the new rest rules in place.
You don’t even get 15 mins after shutdown to finish your duty? Where I used to fly we got up to an hour post flight to tidy up and leave. Granted, it was an unusual operation that involved at least 30 minutes of post flight duties, but even the new job which is pretty normal passenger / freight ops you get 15 mins for post flight duties.
I thought they were going to fix this kind of stuff after the Colgan crash?
It is unfortunate that it is so difficult to separate safety from industrial relations with these issues. Both sides do it too. Employees will sometimes tackle an industrial relations issue by disguising it as safety related and the employers keep dismissing legitimate safety issues as industrial relations.
A friend of mine used to work for Cathay Pacific and said he had some American pilots on his course who were amazed at the work conditions. I thought, well Cathay is a large international airline with good pay etc that’s not too surprising, but he told me some of the things that they’d been impressed by and they were all things that we take for granted here regardless of who the employer is. I can’t remember what they were but just things like leave, flight and duty rules, etc.
It seems like it’s only through the diligence of most pilots and ATCers in the US that more accidents don’t happen. The Colgan crash should’ve been a wake up call for the powers that be to actually DO something about fatigue rather than just giving lip-service to the problem. The worst thing about fatigue is that the fatigued person is not in a fit state to judge whether or not they should be working, but in many cases it is left up to them to make that call.
They are - the NPRM is going to be published shortly. Of course, it’s a “one-size fits all” solution, so how much it actually helps will remain to be seen.