# AirForce Vs. Navy **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 10, 2001, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airforce-vs-navy/57486 "2001-03-10T23:47:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2001, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airforce-vs-navy/57486/21 "2001-03-12T13:42:41Z")
Ok, quick round-up question. In the Navy number posted by Friedo, I can’t tell if that includes helicopters. Does anybody have a clue? If it does, it looks like the AF ends up pulling it out on this one. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2001, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airforce-vs-navy/57486/22 "2001-03-12T15:11:29Z")
I have here the Aviation Week and Space Technology Magazine “Aerospace Source Book” dated January 15, 2001, which includes the full inventory list of all the world’s military forces. Since the US takes 2 pages of small print, I’m not going to add them all up, but here are the fixed-wing types with quantities \>25: USAF (not including Reserves or Guard): B-52H 85 C-17A 55 E-3B/C 32 F-15 all 614 KC-135 255 T-37B 417 A-10A 123 OA-10A 93 C-21A 76 C-5A/B 81 C-141 101 F-117A 53 U-2 31 C-130 all 191 F-16 all 777 KC-10A 59 AT-38B 93 T-38 416 C-12 all 32 T-1A 180 B-1B 73 USN (not including USMC or Reserve): T-34C 307 F/A-18A 64 F/A-18B 27 F/A-18C 326 F/A-18D 45 T-45A 74 T-45C 34 C-2A 37 E-2C 58 EA-6B 95 F-14A 72 F-14B 72 F-14D 46 S-3B 112 P-3C 178 F-4S 30 UC-12B 26 T-2C 102 Just skimming the low-quantity types, there are still more under the USAF name, and adding Reserve and Guard assets would make the disparity greater. USMC aviation assets appear to be mostly helicopters anyway. It would seem that the branch with the most fixed-wing aircraft is the one that was created for the purpose. The number of F-16’s alone in the USAF inventory nearly equals the entire USN inventory, for instance. I’m sure the Navy does still have more ships than the Air Force or Army, though. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2001, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airforce-vs-navy/57486/23 "2001-03-12T15:29:46Z")
I know that one of the branches, I believe the Navy, has hundreds of remote controlled airplanes that are used as part of BDA (Battle Damage Assessment - hey I WATCHED those Gulf War briefings, baby!). And, didn’t some Iraqi soldiers attempt surrender to one of those planes? Hey, in case someone needs to run up the Navy total, there’s a weasel way to do it. Hey, it’s just a suggestion! 🙂 Someone better define “aircraft”, because Tomahawk Cruise missiles are actually small unmanned aircraft AND… Tomahawks are going to be used for future BDA, as opposed to the sloppily controlled remote controlled planes they use now. [http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/missiles/wep-toma.html](http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/missiles/wep-toma.html) ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2001, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airforce-vs-navy/57486/24 "2001-03-13T16:27:25Z")
Thanks Elvis. That looked like a lot of work:) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2001, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airforce-vs-navy/57486/25 "2001-03-13T18:39:57Z")
Just a few minutes, really - I had the book right there. You’re welcome, though. ---
**Author:** ![Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milton_De_La_Warre)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airforce-vs-navy/57486/26 "2001-03-14T12:17:38Z")
Philster: The Navy doesn’t have “hundreds” of remote controlled aircraft, only a very few. They do come under a Program Manager Air (PMA) code at the Naval Air Systems Command, so I suppose they sort of count as aircraft “systems”, but IMHO they aren’t “real” aircraft in the sense that we’re accustomed to the term. As far as most people are concerned (other than in the RPV PMA), they’re pretty neat for model airplanes. Missiles —cruise or otherwise— aren’t considered aircraft (although I believe there’s a PMA for them, too) because they don’t come back for a second flight ----unless you screw up really badly. Someone made a wisecrack about the USAF having old USAAC/USAAF uniforms… They apparently aren’t aware that there are new regs out that make the officer uniforms have sleeve cuff stripes like the Navy or USCG, except in white (vice gold). I hear they USAF folks don’t like the chnage, but then I don’t think anyone ever likes uniform changes at first. Personally, I never cared for the purply-blue color of USAF uniforms and don’t think the white stripes look so good on them. I’d like to see them go with the RAF/RAAF/RNZAF style uniforms and rank insignia. Note: I’m a Navy partisan. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airforce-vs-navy/57486/27 "2001-03-14T16:15:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JCHeckler \* > \*\*Philster: > > The Navy doesn’t have “hundreds” of remote controlled aircraft, only a very few. They do come under a Program Manager Air (PMA) code at the Naval Air Systems Command, so I suppose they sort of count as aircraft “systems”, but IMHO they aren’t “real” aircraft in the sense that we’re accustomed to the term. As far as most people are concerned (other than in the RPV PMA), they’re pretty neat for model airplanes. Note: I’m a Navy partisan. \*\* I would disagree and label them “real aircraft”. I have a better chance of proving they are real aircraft than you have of proving they aren’t, especially in terms of a bet. The military will be using more un-manned aircraft, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t aircraft. So what…they’re small, but they are aircraft. Also, “in service” is important, because if you start counting out of service aircraft, numbers change. Additionally, I learned that the remote controlled airplanes were purchased in a large quantity for testing, etc. They didn’t run down to the local hobby shop and pick up two or three. I’m sure a few are in use, some are in testing, and some are out of service. The lesson to the bettors is such: Define the bet and the betting terms more clearly. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milton_De_La_Warre)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airforce-vs-navy/57486/28 "2001-03-14T17:02:45Z")
The technical term (the term used by the services) for remote controlled “aircraft” currently is “RPV”: Remotely Piloted Vehicle. The word “Aircraft” does not occur therein. It has been proposed that RPV could engage in tasks other than recon and comm relay, and so —say their proponents-- engage in actual direct combat activities, making them “UCAVs”: Unmanned Air Combat Vehicles. No “Aircraft” in that name, either. The services don’t regard them (RPVs/UCAVs) as “aircraft”. Further, RPV operators are not pilots: they are not required to wear wings, are not required to have been flight trained, do not collect flight pay, etc., etc. While an RPV operator could also be a pilot, there is no requirement for them to be such. BTW, the fact that the Navy has a PMA for RPVs is immaterial, as they have a PMA for Air Launched Missiles and also for ground support equipment. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airforce-vs-navy/57486/29 "2001-03-14T17:38:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JCHeckler \* > \*\*The technical term (the term used by the services) for remote controlled “aircraft” currently is “RPV”: Remotely Piloted Vehicle. The word “Aircraft” does not occur therein. It has been proposed that RPV could engage in tasks other than recon and comm relay, and so —say their proponents-- engage in actual direct combat activities, making them “UCAVs”: Unmanned Air Combat Vehicles. No “Aircraft” in that name, either. The services don’t regard them (RPVs/UCAVs) as “aircraft”. Further, RPV operators are not pilots: they are not required to wear wings, are not required to have been flight trained, do not collect flight pay, etc., etc. While an RPV operator could also be a pilot, there is no requirement for them to be such. > > BTW, the fact that the Navy has a PMA for RPVs is immaterial, as they have a PMA for Air Launched Missiles and also for ground support equipment. > > \*\* Dude, read the OP. What is an F16 - is that a airplane? What is a remote controlled airplane? Is that an airplane? You have incredible knowledge of the Navy’s technical designation for aircraft, air vehicles, unmanned air vehicles, monkey operated sling shot vehicles, alien operated saucers, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airforce-vs-navy/57486/30 "2001-03-14T17:40:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > **USMC aviation assets appear to be mostly helicopters anyway.** A lot yes, but they also make up several F/A-18 squaddrons on navy carriers and _all_ the AV-8 Harrier squadrons. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airforce-vs-navy/57486/31 "2001-03-14T19:30:33Z")
KC-130 Hercules EA-6B Prowlers C-12 Huron C-9 Skytrain in addition to the AV-8B Harriers F/A-18 Hornets UH-1 "Huey"s AH-1 Cobras CH-46 Sea Knights CH-53 Sea Stallions I say the USMC has more fixed wing than rotary wing assets, and the Navy and Marine Corps fixed AND rotary assets put together do not come close to the Air Force fixed wing assets alone. But what do I know? Major UncleBill USMCR ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airforce-vs-navy/57486/32 "2001-03-14T19:56:29Z")
Same source as before, looking at USMC (not Reserve) only, but the whole inventory this time: Marine helicopters: AH-1W 148 UH-1 and HH-1 78 CH-46E and HH-46D 213 CH-53 and MH-53 181 VH-3D 11 VH-60N 8 Marine fixed-wing: AV-8B and TAV-8B 132 F/A-18 all 219 EA-6B 20 KC-130 all 49 C-9B 2 UC-12 all 11 Marine tiltrotor: MV-22B 5 The helo jockeys win this one, 639 to 433. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airforce-vs-navy/57486/33 "2001-03-14T23:58:41Z")
> [@](#): > > I say the USMC has more fixed wing than rotary wing assets, and the Navy and Marine Corps fixed AND rotary assets put together do not come close to the Air Force fixed wing assets alone. Not to disagree with you, but aren’t _all_ the Air Force’s assets fixed-wing? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airforce-vs-navy/57486/34 "2001-03-15T01:24:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by waterj2 \* > Not to disagree with you, but aren’t _all_ the Air Force’s assets fixed-wing? No, the AF has some helis, mostly for SAR (search and rescue) units. ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airforce-vs-navy/57486/35 "2001-03-15T05:13:49Z")
> [@](#): > > ". I have a better chance of proving they are real aircraft than you have of proving they aren’t, especially in terms of a bet. No way dude. The bet was specifically about airPLANES not air DRONES. To be a plane, it has to carry a minumum of one person. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airforce-vs-navy/57486/36 "2001-03-15T17:19:27Z")
Merriam Webster - Main Entry: air.plane Pronunciation: 'ar-"plAn, 'er- Function: noun Etymology: alteration of aeroplane Date: 1907 : a powered heavier-than-air aircraft that has fixed wings from which it derives most of its lift [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airforce-vs-navy/57486.md?page=1)