# Airliner shot down over Ukraine - what happens next? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397 "2014-07-17T20:14:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/61 "2014-07-19T20:34:13Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > They need to be held accountable for this atrocity. And yes, the death penalty for the people involved in the murder of 80+ children and hundreds of civilians? > > Not too harsh in my book. Those people need to not exist anymore. The entire planet would be better off without them. Honest question; should the captain and crew of USS Vincennes been executed? They did exactly the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/62 "2014-07-19T20:34:48Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > They need to be held accountable for this atrocity. And yes, the death penalty for the people involved in the murder of 80+ children and hundreds of civilians? > > Not too harsh in my book. Those people need to not exist anymore. The entire planet would be better off without them. > > Also, there’s nothing humorous about this situation. Go look up the images of the crash. I’m sure you’ll find one of a baby lying on the ground. Try and laugh then asshole. Warning, warning, warning. You should know better than to call names, Kinthalis. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/63 "2014-07-19T20:39:48Z")
No one is downplaying the seriousness of this tragic waste of lives. At the same time we realize that being thousands of miles away without authority to act to bring those responsible to justice while expressing outrage & revenge while admonishing others for not being equally impotently outraged is not helpful in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/64 "2014-07-19T21:14:14Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Honest question; should the captain and crew of USS Vincennes been executed? They did exactly the same thing. The Vincennes had a crew of over 300 people, so if nothing else you’d only be talking about a small fraction of the crew. I don’t know enough about the incident to say for sure whether the captain was negligent, but it certainly appears that he was. ---
**Author:** ![kurtisokc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kurtisokc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kurtisokc)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/65 "2014-07-19T22:10:51Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Honest question; should the captain and crew of USS Vincennes been executed? They did exactly the same thing. As tragic as this is and the Vincennes incident was, I don’t believe the death penalty should be applied for mere negligence. And in both cases it almost certainly was negligence rather than a deliberate act, if for no other reason than there was no benefit to either side in shooting down a civilian airliner. Of course, that doesn’t mean the person or persons responsible shouldn’t be held accountable. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/66 "2014-07-19T22:19:09Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Honest question; should the captain and crew of USS Vincennes been executed? They did exactly the same thing. One difference is likely to be dofus not having a clue about th epower of what he was holding firing a surface-to-air missle at some random thing in the sky vs. a career leader in charge of a highly trained crew using state-of-the-art equipment firing at a passenger plane that had just taken off from a civilain airport. The second difference is the crew all got medals. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/67 "2014-07-20T09:35:00Z")
Don’t forget Ukraine shot down a Russian airliner a few years ago over Crimea. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/68 "2014-07-20T10:54:51Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Don’t forget Ukraine shot down a Russian airliner a few years ago over Crimea. Yes, [they did](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812). However, in that case, the Ukrainian government eventually conceded responsibility for the event and made restitution to the victims’ families. Unless and until the responsible parties in MH017’s case act in similar fashion, there’s not much of a parallel here. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/69 "2014-07-20T11:43:52Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Yes, [they did](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812). However, in that case, the Ukrainian government eventually conceded responsibility for the event and made restitution to the victims’ families. Unless and until the responsible parties in MH017’s case act in similar fashion, there’s not much of a parallel here. There’s never an excuse for shooting down an airliner and when it happens there’s always a parallel. This case, the Crimea one and the Vincennes were all at the very best, criminally negligent acts that should have ended up with those personally responsible being punished severely. In this case the ‘rebels’ should be labelled terrorists by Congress and Russia treated as a state sponsor of terrorism. It took Ukraine over a week to finally admit it. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/70 "2014-07-20T12:23:54Z")
I hadn’t been aware until now of the 2001 incident just mentioned. While negligent, that one was rather different than MH017 (and different than Vincennes). It truly was a stupid accident. There was no war going on; there was no intention of bringing down ANY kind if plane, civilian or military. It was just a screwup during a military training exercise. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/71 "2014-07-20T13:23:25Z")
While the call is out there for vengence and executions, I would ask if the same call was made by the same people in 1988, when the United States shot down an Iranian airliner with childeren aboard. > **[Iran Air Flight 655](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655)** > > Iraqi invasion of Iran (1980) > Stalemate (1981) > Iranian offensives to free Iranian territory (1981–82) Yes, this Ukranian episode is a tragedy, but (execution pun intended) must we lose our heads? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/72 "2014-07-20T14:00:27Z")
Upon further review, I see that the above mentioned incident has already been mentioned in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/73 "2014-07-20T14:15:08Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > The Vincennes had a crew of over 300 people, so if nothing else you’d only be talking about a small fraction of the crew. I don’t know enough about the incident to say for sure whether the captain was negligent, but it certainly appears that he was. Fair enough; you can’t hang an engineer’s mate for a decision he had nothing to do with. But following **Kinthalis** ’s logic, the captain and other officers involved in the decision to shoot down Iran Air 655 should all have been hanged. What they did is _exactly_ comparable. It is a remarkably similar incident. Kinthalis seems very serious about it, so I want to know if he’s at least consistent. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/74 "2014-07-20T14:24:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Contrary to the accounts of various USS Vincennes crewmembers, the Vincennes’ shipboard Aegis Combat System recorded that the Iranian airliner was climbing at the time and its radio transmitter was “squawking” on the Mode III civilian code only, rather than on military Mode II > [@](#): > > When questioned in a 2000 BBC documentary, the U.S. government stated in a written answer that they believed the incident may have been caused by a simultaneous psychological condition amongst the 18 bridge crew of the Vincennes called ‘scenario fulfillment’, It can’t be proved or disproved but, imo at least, this incident resulted in the (revenge) of Pan Am 103 at Lockerbie. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/75 "2014-07-20T14:55:09Z")
(Would help if you indicated where you’re quoting from.) In this case, my brother brought up that at one end of the range of possibilities is that those responsible for MH17 will never be identified or known… or ever seen or heard from again. There are ways to insure there’s nobody to be questioned nor to come forward voluntarily with inconvenient explanations different from the official line. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/76 "2014-07-20T16:11:22Z")
Oh sorry, it’s from the link about 4 posts up. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/77 "2014-07-20T16:15:55Z")
> [@Johnny\_Cashless](#): > > It can’t be proved or disproved but, imo at least, this incident resulted in the (revenge) of Pan Am 103 at Lockerbie. Considering the fact that the Pan Am bombing was committed by a socialist revolutionary government regarded as blasphemous by the Iranians and who’s leader also had really nasty views about the Iranian government, that’s highly unlikely. Anyway, Col. Qaddafi had his own reasons for hating the British and the Americans. Also I suspect the operation was already being planned long before the Vincennes shot down the Iranian airliner. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/78 "2014-07-20T16:19:22Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > (Would help if you indicated where you’re quoting from.) > > In this case, my brother brought up that at one end of the range of possibilities is that those responsible for MH17 will never be identified or known… or ever seen or heard from again. There are ways to insure there’s nobody to be questioned nor to come forward voluntarily with inconvenient explanations different from the official line. Yeah, if I was realpolitik enough to start slicing of parts of my neighboring countries, it seems it’d be no problem to kill a few inconvenient persons under my command. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/79 "2014-07-20T16:39:46Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Considering the fact that the Pan Am bombing was committed by a socialist revolutionary government regarded as blasphemous by the Iranians and who’s leader also had really nasty views about the Iranian government, that’s highly unlikely. But then what you don’t know about Qaddafi in the late 80s is a lot, as demonstrated by your apparent reliance on shared political ideology as a motive. You are some way off the scent, again. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/80 "2014-07-20T16:49:04Z")
From three months ago: > [@](#): > > Ex-CIA agent Robert Baer says former colleagues stated that **Iran bombed Pan-Am Flight 103 in retaliation** for the downing of an Iran Air passenger plane by a US Navy ship in July 1988 [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10688718/Lockerbie-bombing-Al-Jazeera-documentary-claims-Iran-was-responsible.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10688718/Lockerbie-bombing-Al-Jazeera-documentary-claims-Iran-was-responsible.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397.md?page=5)