# Airliner shot down over Ukraine - what happens next? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397 "2014-07-17T20:14:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/101 "2014-07-21T00:58:07Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Maybe not, but it’s doubly irrelevant: irrelevant to the question of whether Libya was responsible for the bombing, and irrelevant to the topic of this thread. It may not stretch credulity to surmise that Gaddafi framed Megrahi in order to protect someone else, but to suggest that he and his Libyan agents weren’t responsible for the bombing is strictly Loony Tunes territory. They openly and formally admitted it, for Christ’s sake. …for Christ’s sake, feel free to continue to make whatever claim you like about Libya. I’ll take this post as a concession you do not dispute anything I have said about Al-Megrahi. A simple “I agree that Al-Megrahi is probably innocent” would have sufficed. Now feel free to continue the discussion about the MH17 shootdown. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/102 "2014-07-21T01:05:32Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Whoever didn’t shoot down the plane will take revenge on whoever they think did. And then those people will take revenge for the revenge. Repeat ad nauseum for the next dozen generations or so, until nobody remembers who is taking revenge for what, but they keep killing the other side. Dutch AIDS scientists are going to wage a terrorist war against Russia for the next 1000 years? I wish. More seriously, this is total scumbaggery on the part of Russia and those so-called Ukrainian separatists. Unfortunately, Germany will lead Europe to say nothing and do nothing because, gas. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/103 "2014-07-21T01:50:40Z")
A few points of correction/nitpicking since some of this seems to be drifting toward placing blame or equivalency on the Ukraine… > [@tagos](#): > > Don’t forget Ukraine shot down a Russian airliner a few years ago over Crimea. Not at all a “parallel” as you claim in your other post. The Russian airliner was a case of a military exercise gone wrong, entirely an accident. The MH17 case was a deliberate targeting. It was very likely a case of mistaken identity, but it’s hardly an excuse to say that terrorists intending to kill one set of innocents killed a different set of innocents by mistake. There was absolutely no reason to believe that this plane – or any plane flying by at 33000 ft in or near a known commercial air route – was in any way hostile. This was a deliberate and unconscionable overt criminal act. > [@levdrakon](#): > > More seriously, this is total scumbaggery on the part of Russia and those so-called Ukrainian separatists. True enough, it’s just that calling them “Ukrainian separatists” is misleading, since it implies that this is a bunch of Ukrainians wanting Ukraine to separate from… what? It’s already a sovereign nation. In point of fact this is a Russian-backed band of terrorists that are a small minority of the population in the Donetsk region of eastern Ukraine, a mixture of Russians in heritage and spirit and actual Russian citizens in the illegally self-proclaimed so-called “Republic of Donetsk”, legally part of Ukraine and not recognized as a sovereign nation by any country in the world, who would like to see Donetsk formally separated from Ukraine and allied or joined with Russia. So they are properly regarded as murderous Russian scumbags, backed by Putin’s regime, and declared by the Ukraine government as a terrorist organization. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/104 "2014-07-21T01:55:58Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > True enough, it’s just that calling them “Ukrainian separatists” is misleading, since it implies that this is a bunch of Ukrainians wanting Ukraine to separate from… what? It’s already a sovereign nation. In point of fact this is a Russian-backed band of terrorists that are a small minority of the population in the Donetsk region of eastern Ukraine, a mixture of Russians in heritage and spirit and actual Russian citizens in the illegally self-proclaimed so-called “Republic of Donetsk”, legally part of Ukraine and not recognized as a sovereign nation by any country in the world, who would like to see Donetsk formally separated from Ukraine and allied or joined with Russia. So they are properly regarded as murderous Russian scumbags, backed by Putin’s regime, and declared by the Ukraine government as a terrorist organization. True. I stand corrected. These people are Russian and have sworn allegiance to Putin. It’s pretty much Russia all around. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/105 "2014-07-21T02:32:04Z")
Which is why, as I heard on the news just now, British PM David Cameron today and John Kerry today were both aiming their verbal barbs squarely at Russia. Completely OT, but what would you be thinking if you were [Maarten de Jonge](http://abcnews.go.com/International/dutch-cyclist-avoids-tragedy-scheduled-doomed-flights/story?id=24632968)? The Dutch cyclist was booked on MH17 and switched his ticket at the last minute for a later flight. That kind of fortuitous narrow escape would be enough to turn a lot of people to religion. The thing was, Maarten was also booked on MH370 back in March, and cancelled **that one** at the last minute, too! He says he has no qualms about booking another Air Malaysia flight, and if I were him, knowing that I had a magic horseshoe stuck firmly up my ass, I wouldn’t hesitate either! But if Maarten de Jonge ever cancels a flight again, I’m running for the hills! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/106 "2014-07-21T02:34:10Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Maybe when Obama apologizes/pays restitution to Nicaragua for Reagan’s supprt of the Contras, Russia might consider an apology for supporting the Donetsk People’s Republic. Until then, people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. America has been more than happy to support terrorists of its own over the years, including the people who promoted Salafist jihadism in Afghanistan. Presumably you’re outraged that the Nazis were punished for the Holocaust since until the Turks were punished for the Armenian Holocaust they shouldn’t be punished. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/107 "2014-07-21T02:34:52Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > A few points of correction/nitpicking since some of this seems to be drifting toward placing blame or equivalency on the Ukraine… > > Not at all a “parallel” as you claim in your other post. The Russian airliner was a case of a military exercise gone wrong, entirely an accident. The MH17 case was a deliberate targeting. It was very likely a case of mistaken identity, but it’s hardly an excuse to say that terrorists intending to kill one set of innocents killed a different set of innocents by mistake. There was absolutely no reason to believe that this plane – or any plane flying by at 33000 ft in or near a known commercial air route – was in any way hostile. This was a deliberate and unconscionable overt criminal act. > > True enough, it’s just that calling them “Ukrainian separatists” is misleading, since it implies that this is a bunch of Ukrainians wanting Ukraine to separate from… what? It’s already a sovereign nation. In point of fact this is a Russian-backed band of terrorists that are a small minority of the population in the Donetsk region of eastern Ukraine, a mixture of Russians in heritage and spirit and actual Russian citizens in the illegally self-proclaimed so-called “Republic of Donetsk”, legally part of Ukraine and not recognized as a sovereign nation by any country in the world, who would like to see Donetsk formally separated from Ukraine and allied or joined with Russia. So they are properly regarded as murderous Russian scumbags, backed by Putin’s regime, and declared by the Ukraine government as a terrorist organization. They’re Ukrainian separatists in the sense that they want Donetsk and Lugansk to separate from Ukraine, and join Russia. I could call them the Donetsk freedom fighters if you prefer. America has shot down civilian aircraft by accident before (like the already mentioned Vincennes incident where they shot down an Iranian plane) so I fail to see why this is any worse. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/108 "2014-07-21T02:43:16Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > America has shot down civilian aircraft by accident before (like the already mentioned Vincennes incident where they shot down an Iranian plane) so I fail to see why this is any worse. It’s worse partly because we’re supposed to learn from each other’s mistakes. Broadly speaking, though, I think the two incidents are pretty equally outrageous and appalling. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/109 "2014-07-21T02:48:16Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > They’re Ukrainian separatists in the sense that they want Donetsk and Lugansk to separate from Ukraine, and join Russia. I could call them the Donetsk freedom fighters if you prefer. > > America has shot down civilian aircraft by accident before (like the already mentioned Vincennes incident where they shot down an Iranian plane) so I fail to see why this is any worse. Once again, I know you think you’re making strong points but you’re just making simplistic arguments that most of us gave up after high school. Based on such logic, it was wrong to hang or in any way punish the Nazis because of similar atrocities committed by the Americans, British, French, and the Russians. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/110 "2014-07-21T02:51:53Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > It’s worse partly because we’re supposed to learn from each other’s mistakes. Broadly speaking, though, I think the two incidents are pretty equally outrageous and appalling. It’s worth noting that the US did financially compensate the families, but I always find such “you too” arguments incredibly stupid. Is the West forbidden from condemning Saudi refusal to grant women the vote because it used to deny them the vote as well? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/111 "2014-07-21T03:28:39Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > America has shot down civilian aircraft by accident before (like the already mentioned Vincennes incident where they shot down an Iranian plane) so I fail to see why this is any worse. By accident during an actual war and the pilots veered off course. Still a horrible tragedy, but not quite Russians cheering about it and then deleting their Facebook posts. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/112 "2014-07-21T03:32:10Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > By accident during an actual war and the pilots veered off course. Still a horrible tragedy, but not quite Russians cheering about it and then deleting their Facebook posts. Huh? What “actual war”? Are you referring to the Iran-Iraq War? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/113 "2014-07-21T03:35:04Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Presumably you’re outraged that the Nazis were punished for the Holocaust since until the Turks were punished for the Armenian Holocaust they shouldn’t be punished. If the lesser offense had been punished but the greater offense had not been…I might not be outraged, but I’d feel something was wrong. Are the two events really comparable, in a direct, one-to-one, straight-up fashion? The Nazis practiced industrialized genocide, in a highly organized, bureaucratic, almost scientific fashion. The Turks relied on the old methods, familiar to them from medieval times: hack, slash, and burn. They’re both terrible (and I’m neither making excuses for the Turks nor condemning them for being primitive) – they’re just different kinds of events. Germany horrifies many of us because it was a modern, industrialized, rich, educated, advanced democracy. Turkey, in the 1920’s, wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/114 "2014-07-21T03:39:56Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > They’re Ukrainian separatists in the sense that they want Donetsk and Lugansk to separate from Ukraine, and join Russia. I could call them the Donetsk freedom fighters if you prefer. “x separatists” generally refers to extremist patriots of “x” who wish to declare independence from the parent body. So “Ukrainian separatists” makes no semantic sense and is misleading. If you want my suggestion for a label, you can call them “Russian-backed pro-Russian terrorists who support Putin’s strategy for Russian hegemony in the region that parallels the old Soviet Union”. If that’s too long for you, you can just call them “Russian assholes”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/115 "2014-07-21T03:43:07Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > If the lesser offense had been punished but the greater offense had not been…I might not be outraged, but I’d feel something was wrong. > > Are the two events really comparable, in a direct, one-to-one, straight-up fashion? The Nazis practiced industrialized genocide, in a highly organized, bureaucratic, almost scientific fashion. The Turks relied on the old methods, familiar to them from medieval times: hack, slash, and burn. They’re both terrible (and I’m neither making excuses for the Turks nor condemning them for being primitive) – they’re just different kinds of events. > > Germany horrifies many of us because it was a modern, industrialized, rich, educated, advanced democracy. Turkey, in the 1920’s, wasn’t. Actually, the Armenians were mostly starved to death. I should have also said the Ottoman Empire, not the Turks. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/116 "2014-07-21T03:59:51Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Maybe when Obama apologizes/pays restitution to Nicaragua for Reagan’s supprt of the Contras, Russia might consider an apology for supporting the Donetsk People’s Republic. Until then, people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. They’re plexiglass so no worries. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/117 "2014-07-21T04:01:59Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Huh? > > What “actual war”? > > Are you referring to the Iran-Iraq War? What if I am? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/118 "2014-07-21T04:28:14Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > What if I am? I was asking what war you were referring to because the US wasn’t in a war with Iran. Not sure why you’re being hostile to an honest question. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/119 "2014-07-21T04:49:38Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Presumably you’re outraged that the Nazis were punished for the Holocaust since until the Turks were punished for the Armenian Holocaust they shouldn’t be punished. I think both of them should have been punished, and if there arose a movement today demanding that Turkey make payments/territorial concessions to Armenia, I’d support it. I don’t think ‘accidentally shooting down a plane that passed over your airspace during a war’ is the same moral magnitude as genocide, though. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/120 "2014-07-21T04:59:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I was asking what war you were referring to because the US wasn’t in a war with Iran. > > Not sure why you’re being hostile to an honest question. Oh, I’m not hostile except I’ve got a real case of the ass about this latest incident which ain’t no incident. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397.md?page=7)