# Airliner shot down over Ukraine - what happens next? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397 "2014-07-17T20:14:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/161 "2014-07-23T00:29:56Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I think the best thing to do here is combine all the idiotic hijacks: why did God permit the Nazis and America to conduct genocidal expansions? Once we answer that the answer to the Ukraine crisis will be obvious. The answer to the Ukraine crisis is obvious: the clown who calls himself president of the Ukraine needs to remove his army from the two breakaway provinces, and let them go their own way. And hopefully, stop antagonizing Russia anymore. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/162 "2014-07-23T00:36:41Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The answer to the Ukraine crisis is obvious: the clown who calls himself president of the Ukraine needs to remove his army from the two breakaway provinces, and let them go their own way. And hopefully, stop antagonizing Russia anymore. Ha ha. Sure. Or maybe the rebels should just lay down their arms and fuck off to Russia if they like it so much. ---
**Author:** ![opesdol\_opesdolovich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d78d45/32.png) [@opesdol\_opesdolovich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/opesdol_opesdolovich)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/163 "2014-07-23T00:55:47Z")
Ah, it appears the kiss has already been delivered! > **['Hypocrites!': Hollande hits back at Cameron attacking France selling...](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2701158/Cameron-tells-EU-countries-needs-hit-sanctions-against-Russia-banking-energy-defence.html)** > > French President Francois Hollande has vowed to press ahead with selling warships to Russia, despite criticism from David Cameron who said the deal was 'unthinkable'. _ **French President Francois Hollande has vowed to press ahead with selling warships to Russia, despite criticism from David Cameron** _ 😃 😃 God bless you, Mssr. Hollande, you magnificent cheese-eating surrendering monkey, you… > **[Despite Anger Over Downed Jetliner, Europe Shies Away From Sanctions on...](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/23/world/europe/europeans-to-debate-tougher-sanctions-on-russia.html?_r=0)** > > Foreign ministers had been seen as unlikely to impose tough new measures, for fear of jeopardizing an independent search of the Malaysia Airlines crash site. _ **Despite Anger Over Downed Jetliner, Europe Shies Away From Sanctions on Russia** _ This is so beautiful, I want to cry. Bravo, Vlad, you’ve done it again! Bravo! ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/164 "2014-07-23T01:01:57Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Ha ha. Sure. Or maybe the rebels should just lay down their arms and fuck off to Russia if they like it so much. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/165 "2014-07-23T01:07:07Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Clearly you do have no idea, so let me try to restate it. In what way is Russia’s history of territorial expansion and hegemony over its near neighbors any more objectionable than America’s? And why do you think Nazi Germany is a better analogy for Russian/Soviet territorial expansionism than America is? Perhaps the peoples of Canada and Latvia can have a debate on the subject? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/166 "2014-07-23T01:20:34Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Clearly you do have no idea, so let me try to restate it. In what way is Russia’s history of territorial expansion and hegemony over its near neighbors any more objectionable than America’s? And why do you think Nazi Germany is a better analogy for Russian/Soviet territorial expansionism than America is? Uh. The US’s nearest neighbors are Mexico, Canada and Russia. I think you can ask any of them and they’ll tell you they’re just fine not being the 51st state. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/167 "2014-07-23T01:49:32Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Uh. The US’s nearest neighbors are Mexico, Canada and Russia. I think you can ask any of them and they’ll tell you they’re just fine not being the 51st state. Mexico lost a large proportion of its territory to the US in the 1840s. And why are you ignoring the states are _near_ to the United States but not technically continuous? America has behaved like a prototypical playground bully towards Cuba, Nicaragua, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador and other countries that are more broadly in its neighborhood, during the Cold War era and since. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/168 "2014-07-23T03:54:37Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Why? Because there didn’t seem to be popular support for separation in the region before this mess got crazy. Isn’t it a little more fair for the militants to just emigrate rather than force everyone in the area become Russian? Now you say why just handed over the territory is reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/169 "2014-07-23T13:44:03Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Mexico lost a large proportion of its territory to the US in the 1840s. > > And why are you ignoring the states are _near_ to the United States but not technically continuous? America has behaved like a prototypical playground bully towards Cuba, Nicaragua, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador and other countries that are more broadly in its neighborhood, during the Cold War era and since. Its not the 1840s anymore. They were 170+ years ago. _Most_ nationstates have amended their behavior since. This really is the root of the problem. Russia appears to believe that it can interact with its neighbours like it did in the 19th century, and uses 19th century examples to justify its behavior. There is a reason Russias puppets rushed to join NATO the moment Russias grip slipped. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/170 "2014-07-23T14:27:24Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > Its not the 1840s anymore. They were 170+ years ago. _Most_ nationstates have amended their behavior since. > > This really is the root of the problem. Russia appears to believe that it can interact with its neighbours like it did in the 19th century, and uses 19th century examples to justify its behavior. > > There is a reason Russias puppets rushed to join NATO the moment Russias grip slipped. America’s intervention in Nicaragua happened in the 1980s. I happen to think that was far more morally despicable than Russia’s support for the Donetsk People’s Republic. And at least some of Russia’s former satellites- Belarus for one- seem to be quite happy to be a a Russian ally. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/171 "2014-07-23T14:32:15Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Because there didn’t seem to be popular support for separation in the region before this mess got crazy. Isn’t it a little more fair for the militants to just emigrate rather than force everyone in the area become Russian? Now you say why just handed over the territory is reasonable. There wasn’t support for separation, necessarily, but there was certainly strong political division between the east and west, and Yanukovych was quite popular in the east. Also, the separatists are ‘about’ more than just Russian ethnonationalism, they have a strongly left wing economic platform, for example. This isn’t purely about ethnicity and language. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/172 "2014-07-23T14:33:23Z")
“funny monkey noises”… sigh. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/173 "2014-07-23T14:39:34Z")
> [@opesdol\_opesdolovich](#): > > 1. Obama is going to continue to huff and puff and make funny monkey noises. :rolleyes: Please don’t do that any more. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/174 "2014-07-23T14:43:46Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > And at least some of Russia’s former satellites- Belarus for one- seem to be quite happy to be a a Russian ally. Belarus is Europe’s last Stalinist dictatorship; pick a better example. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/175 "2014-07-23T14:45:43Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Also, the separatists are ‘about’ more than just Russian ethnonationalism, they have a strongly left wing economic platform, for example. And Putin doesn’t. How is it they have any use for each other? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/176 "2014-07-23T14:47:11Z")
Here’s what I don’t get. Why doesn’t Putin movie his army in, slice off the rebel areas of Ukraine and present the world with a _fait accompli_ as he did with Crimea. Sure, the West would up the sanctions but Putin must also know than nobody forgets faster than Western nations where there are profits to be made. I just don’t see what he has to gain by spinning things out like this. He needs to piss or get off the pot. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/177 "2014-07-23T15:29:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Belarus is Europe’s last Stalinist dictatorship; pick a better example. What’s wrong with Belarus as an example? I might point out that they’ve been fairly economically successful over the last two decades, have a higher HDI than any other ex-Soviet state outside the Baltics, and have quite a low Gini coefficient too last I checked, so whatever they’re doing, it seems to be working pretty well for them. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/178 "2014-07-23T15:31:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And Putin doesn’t. How is it they have any use for each other? Enemy of my enemy, geopolitics, etc… Putin’s also kind of a patron for left-wing regimes in Venezuela and Nicaragua, even though the communists at home don’t like him. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/179 "2014-07-23T15:39:45Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Here’s what I don’t get. Why doesn’t Putin movie his army in, slice off the rebel areas of Ukraine and present the world with a _fait accompli_ as he did with Crimea. Sure, the West would up the sanctions but Putin must also know than nobody forgets faster than Western nations where there are profits to be made. I just don’t see what he has to gain by spinning things out like this. He needs to piss or get off the pot. Speculation is that his main goal is to put pressure on Ukraine to force it to avoid getting too close to the West. Not sure if this makes sense though. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397/180 "2014-07-23T15:52:27Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Speculation is that his main goal is to put pressure on Ukraine to force it to avoid getting too close to the West. Not sure if this makes sense though. That’s just it, I don’t think the policy of aiding the rebels without the goal of ultimate annexation does make sense. The pressure, rather than being on Ukraine, will be all on Russia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine-what-happens-next/693397.md?page=10)