# Airplane cabin oxygen masks...more "feel good" than help? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 15, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123 "2005-08-15T18:26:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tower\_Dweller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@Tower\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tower_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123/21 "2005-08-16T18:03:02Z")
> [@racer72](#): > > Boeing is pretty good at keeping us employees up to date when an airplane crashes. We all recieve emails this morning telling us we will be told more when more info is available. Nothing to add, except thanks to everybody for the really informative thread. **racer72** , I would love to hear any additional information you receive, assuming of course that won’t get you in trouble. ---
**Author:** ![fortytwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f9ae1b/32.png) [@fortytwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fortytwo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123/22 "2005-08-16T19:35:20Z")
> [@Bippy the Beardless](#): > > With the prevalence of autopilot on all major passenger planes why isn’t there an autopilot contolled procedure that brings a depressurised plane to a safe height? Thus if the pilots are rendered unconcious the plane still has a chance of survival. If the pilot is concious he/she could over-rule the autopilot if necessary so there is no danger in having such a system built into all airliners. I can only assume you’ve mentioned this because of the Helios Airways crash recently. Without knowing what the investigation will eventually uncover, they were still very unusual circumstances. Normally the aircrew have different warnings to alert them that there is a pressurisation problem (even if they didn’t notice, which is extremely unlikely) This gives them ample warning to reduce altitude if they can’t work round the problem. The only other similiar case I can remember off hand is the one involving Payne Stewart a few years ago. If there a spate of similiar accidents then perhaps something might be done but considering the many thousands of trouble free flights that take place daily then it would be probably be an over-reaction to start reprogramming all their auto pilot systems (or whatever it is they would have to do) for that once in a million event. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Bird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Little\_Bird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Bird)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123/23 "2005-08-16T19:39:29Z")
> [@Mickymoo](#): > > Is it true that the reason they tell you to put your head between your knees in the brace position during a likely crash scenario is not to save your life on impact,but in order to make identifying you via dental records easier? Um…no. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123/24 "2005-08-16T20:03:29Z")
It’s so you can kiss your ass goodbye. **Bippy the Beardless** , that’s a pretty damn good question. Some of the fly by wire planes already have programmed flight modes so it is certainly technically possible. I think the risks are potentially flying into terrain and flying into other traffic during a descent but no more so than if the crew is passed out and the plane runs out of fuel. It may only be that it isn’t considered enough of a risk to do something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123/25 "2005-08-16T20:26:32Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Till I read this I would positively freak if I felt myself passing out in such circumstances convinced my oxygen mask was failing me and after passing out I would die. Doesn’t work that way, IIRC. In my Ground School classes I took with the Air Force JROTC way back in the day, we were told that one of the main symptoms of Hypoxia was a feeling of “Everything’s A-OK!”. Thus the running joke we had in that class: “If there is absolutley NOTHING wrong while you’re flying… check your oxygen.” > [@](#): > > I still do not see why a system to provide enough air flow to sustain consciousness would be that burdensome on a commercial passenger jet. This could just be the cynic in me speaking, but if I were a pilot in a plane undergoing some sort of emergency, I think I’d rather deal with a cabin full of oxygenated but unconcious passengers than a cabin full of oxygenated panicky passengers. That said, the air crew should immediately get the plane below 14K feet or so as quickly as possible to render the whole point moot. Random question: I assume the flight attendants would have the duty of making sure the passengers have their masks on. Do they have some kind of portable O2 system to keep them on their feet when they do this? Or is my assumption just wrong and the flight attendants have the duty only to sit down and put on their own masks? ---
**Author:** ![fortytwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f9ae1b/32.png) [@fortytwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fortytwo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123/26 "2005-08-16T21:38:48Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Random question: I assume the flight attendants would have the duty of making sure the passengers have their masks on. Do they have some kind of portable O2 system to keep them on their feet when they do this? Or is my assumption just wrong and the flight attendants have the duty only to sit down and put on their own masks? Yes, there are portable oxygen bottles (with masks) to enable cabin staff to move about. They are generally classed as therapeutic oxygen bottles as they are more often used for passengers having breathing problems during flight. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123/27 "2005-08-16T21:55:18Z")
> [@racer72](#): > > Those flying the airplane were unable to bring the airplane down to a sufficient altitude that could sustain life. Airplane oxygen systems are tested to deploy automatically at 14,400 feet, they were flying more than twice that high. Usually getting a plane to come back to mother Earth isn’t much of a problem. 🙂 Any news on why the plane could not / did not decend? Gravity storm? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123/28 "2005-08-16T22:33:13Z")
Do the passenger emergency oxygen masks deploy automatically when the plane detects a loss of pressure or do the pilots need to manually hit a button (or throw a lever or whatever) to make the masks deploy? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123/29 "2005-08-16T22:43:13Z")
> [@Padeye](#): > > **Bippy the Beardless** , that’s a pretty damn good question. Some of the fly by wire planes already have programmed flight modes so it is certainly technically possible. I think the risks are potentially flying into terrain and flying into other traffic during a descent but no more so than if the crew is passed out and the plane runs out of fuel. I had wondered the same thing as ] **Bippy the Beardless**. Seems like a small enough matter to get the autopilot to accomplish something like this. As for your issues I think they could be managed. For flying into terrain I would think the stance could be taken that the chance is worth taking. In the absence of an affirmative action every few minutes by the flight crew when pressure is lost and the plane is above XX,000 feet the autopilot may assume the crew is unconscious and will descend to a lower altitude. If they fly into a mountain well…they were likely to crash anyway if everyone on board was unconscious. As for other traffic in the area I’d think the autopilot could be made to initiate a preprogrammed broadcast that essentially says the plane in flying under automatic control a minute or three before initiating maneuvers of its own accord. That would give ground control time to warn other aircraft in the area out of the way. It would be neat if ground control could send some minimal guidance to a plane under autopilot when the crew is incapacitated. Things like height, speed and direction signals. It wouldn’t land the plane in the absence of a crew but at least they could steer it around obstacles like mountains and as the last resort make sure the plane crashes in an unpopulated area (I remember talk of them wanting to shoot down Payne Stewarts plane for fear of it crashing in a populated area). ---
**Author:** ![fortytwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f9ae1b/32.png) [@fortytwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fortytwo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123/30 "2005-08-16T22:53:09Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Do the passenger emergency oxygen masks deploy automatically when the plane detects a loss of pressure or do the pilots need to manually hit a button (or throw a lever or whatever) to make the masks deploy? You must have missed the posts where it was said that the passenger masks will automatically deploy. However in my experience there is also an option for the flight crew to manually deploy them. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123/31 "2005-08-17T00:54:35Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I had wondered the same thing as ] **Bippy the Beardless**. Seems like a small enough matter to get the autopilot to accomplish something like this. As for your issues I think they could be managed. For flying into terrain I would think the stance could be taken that the chance is worth taking. In the absence of an affirmative action every few minutes by the flight crew when pressure is lost and the plane is above XX,000 feet the autopilot may assume the crew is unconscious and will descend to a lower altitude. If they fly into a mountain well…they were likely to crash anyway if everyone on board was unconscious. As for other traffic in the area I’d think the autopilot could be made to initiate a preprogrammed broadcast that essentially says the plane in flying under automatic control a minute or three before initiating maneuvers of its own accord. That would give ground control time to warn other aircraft in the area out of the way. As a small airplane pilot, the notion that a passenger jet could come screaming down on top of me at 7,000+ fpm per minute rate of descent just plain gives me the cold, sweating willies. It’s so much bigger and faster than me… well, it’d would be somewhat like trying to outrun a frieght train at full speed. Anyhow - methinks you are not a pilot, else you would see the flaw in your “broadcast” proposal. There are MANY aviation frequencies, and the radios in aircraft are not equipped to scan all frequencies. So only those who happened to be on the same frequency would hear you. If, hypothetically, you broadcast on ALL frequencies… well, radios aren’t _required_ over much of North America, some areas (such as broad swathes of Africa) simply don’t have radio coverage of any sort, and the _last_ time someone tried the “broadcast on all frequencies” trick (September 11, 2001) it _still_ took several hours to get through to everyone. The idea is good, but the infrastructure to support it simply isn’t there and it’s questionable if it’s cost effective to install such a system. And how do you define “local area” and “out of the way”? A passenger jet easily travels a mile in… oh, less than 8 seconds. “Local area” under such circumstances is quite a large area. And how will you communicate what this area is? GPS? Not everyone flies with that. Lattitude and Longitude? I - and just about everyone else I know - would have to pull out a map, which is going to take us longer than a minute or three, most likely. Radio beacons? Not all planes are equipped to receive such signals. Granted, the airplanes with less equipment _tend_ to stay well under 10,000 feet but they don’t _have_ to, and in mountanous areas they may not be able to, depending on ground elevation. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123/32 "2005-08-17T02:03:57Z")
**Broomstick** , I don’t think anyone would expect this to be anything more than extremely rare and in any event I think a plane under autopilot control would be no more dangerous than one that is going down because it ran out of fuel. ---
**Author:** ![Dog80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123/33 "2005-08-17T07:33:08Z")
Why did the aircraft crash? Did it ran out of fuel? Or did a passenger try to take control of the aircraft and failed? Some people here in Greece claim that the plane was shot down by the two F16 fighter jets that were following it. Is that a possibility? Others have claimed that it was not necessary for the F16s to fire a single shot on the plane; a fighter jet can “steer” a large passenger plane simply by directing its exhaust gasses towards the plane’s wings. Is that true? Wouldn’t the auto-pilot compensate for the disturbances and fix the plane’s course? ---
**Author:** ![Dog80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123/34 "2005-08-17T07:36:09Z")
Also, if the plane was out of fuel, why did it catch fire when it crashed? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123/35 "2005-08-17T10:11:52Z")
> [@Dog80](#): > > Why did the aircraft crash? Did it ran out of fuel? Or did a passenger try to take control of the aircraft and failed? Not known at this point, although lack of fuel seems unlikely since it was on course, not delayed, and airplanes typically carry sufficient fuel + emergency reserve. There was a flight attendant found in the cockpit, with the pilots. It could be she attempted to fly the airplane, but we may never know for sure. There have been discussions of the possibility that an untrained person could land an airplane with incapacitated pilots. The odds are very poor, but in such a situation you have little to lose by trying. [Could I Land A Big Airliner With Just Radio Assistance?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=260326&highlight=passenger+airplane+land+emergency) [By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=187805) [Could I land a commercial airliner?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=117809) > [@](#): > > Some people here in Greece claim that the plane was shot down by the two F16 fighter jets that were following it. Is that a possibility? Possible? Of course - assuming the F16’s were armed at the time. But if they had I would expect the military to say so, and they haven’t. Nor is there (at this time) any compelling evidence that they did so. Since airplanes crash without being shot, the burden of proof is on those making the claim. > [@](#): > > Others have claimed that it was not necessary for the F16s to fire a single shot on the plane; a fighter jet can “steer” a large passenger plane simply by directing its exhaust gasses towards the plane’s wings. Is that true? Wouldn’t the auto-pilot compensate for the disturbances and fix the plane’s course? Yes, the auto-pilot would attempt to compensate for any course deviations, regardless of source. That is basically their function. So even if an F16 attempted such a manuver - which would be dangerous and risky due to proximity of the the aircraft to each other - the autopilot would fight the course change. Also, the exhaust from an F16, like the exhaust from all jets, is quite hot. Get close enough, you’re going to damage the other airplane’s wings, which will make controlling it a lot harder. > [@](#): > > Also, if the plane was out of fuel, why did it catch fire when it crashed? Because it wasn’t out of fuel? Actually, even when an airplane is “out” of fuel there is still some residual fuel left in the bottom of tank, in fuel lines, etc., as well as potentially explosive vapors. When you pour water out of glass there’s residual moisture left behind - same concept here. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123/36 "2005-08-17T11:14:59Z")
> [@Mickymoo](#): > > Is it true that the reason they tell you to put your head between your knees in the brace position during a likely crash scenario is not to save your life on impact,but in order to make identifying you via dental records easier? No, no, no. It’s to snap your neck on impact so you’re more likely to get killed on impact, rather than surviving with major injuries. The insurance payouts are cheaper that way. At least, that’s the rumor…Mythbusters covered it recently, but I forget if it was confirmed or not. ---
**Author:** ![Dog80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123/37 "2005-08-17T11:38:48Z")
Thanks for the answer! > [@Broomstick](#): > > Possible? Of course - assuming the F16’s were armed at the time. But if they had I would expect the military to say so, and they haven’t. Nor is there (at this time) any compelling evidence that they did so. Since airplanes crash without being shot, the burden of proof is on those making the claim. Maybe it is SOP, but what gave fuel to the conspiracy theorists was the refusal of the military to give the names of the F16 pilots. Besides, the military is always involved in conspiracies (Area 51, black helicopters, etc 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123/38 "2005-08-17T12:43:42Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > As a small airplane pilot, the notion that a passenger jet could come screaming down on top of me at 7,000+ fpm per minute rate of descent just plain gives me the cold, sweating willies. It’s so much bigger and faster than me… well, it’d would be somewhat like trying to outrun a frieght train at full speed. > > Anyhow - methinks you are not a pilot, else you would see the flaw in your “broadcast” proposal. You are correct that I am not a pilot. Still, it seems to me much of this can be manageable. Couldn’t the autopilot be programmed to pay attention to its own radar? That is, if it “sees” something out in front (such as **Broomstick’s** single engine plane) it would know enough to modify its descent to avoid whatever it is? Isn’t that what a human pilot would essentially do? I mean, if cabin pressure is lost the pilot presumably takes the plane ASAP to lower altitude and reports what they are doing to ground control. I doubt they wait a few hours for everyone to be contacted. The autopilot would essentially do the same thing and while it is not as savvy a flier as a human today’s computers are good enough to tell it to avoid proximity with other “things” on the radar (the military uses terrain following autopilots). While it may be a much more significant addition to the avaiation system in airports and planes enabling ground control to send commands to an autopilot would seem very useful. That way ground control could steer the plane appropriately and avoid many issues you are talking about. Of course, such things as the plane in Greece are rare occurrences so that alone may not be sufficient reason to bear the cost and effort of such a system (unless they wanted to be able to _seize_ control of a plane (say one that is hijacked) so terrorists could not do whatever it is they may want to do with the plane. I imagine the thought of the plane’s controls being seized by ground control is one pilots would definitely not like though. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123/39 "2005-08-17T14:33:48Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Couldn’t the autopilot be programmed to pay attention to its own radar? That is, if it “sees” something out in front … it would know enough to modify its descent to avoid whatever it is? Civilian aircraft almost never have radars that depict other aircraft. They do have systems such (such as TCAS) that can give proximity warnings about some other aircraft (basically, those equipped with transponders). But why bother? Padeye has pointed out that this situation is extremely rare, and no more dangerous than the plane descending out of control. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123/40 "2005-08-17T14:46:45Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Civilian aircraft almost never have radars that depict other aircraft. _Commercial_ airliners (read multi-engine jetliners) do not have full blown radar that shows what is ahead of the plane? Really? Smaller planes I can understand but I thought radar was standard equipment on the larger jets. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airplane-cabin-oxygen-masks-more-feel-good-than-help/317123.md?page=3)