# Airport security - when do we say "enough"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2017, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608 "2017-05-28T18:20:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/41 "2017-05-29T01:13:10Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I’d be ok with someone starting an airline with decreased security-- people should get to choose to take risks. But there is no way I would ever take it. Would you? Decreased _actual_ security, or decreased _fake_ security? I mean, I’m perfectly comfortable getting on a plane now, in which people generally are allowed to bring laptops on flights originating overseas. If they ban laptops in the cabin on foreign-originating flights, but for some inconceivable reason one particular airline is given an exemption to that rule just for the hell of it, without any supplementary procedures to make up for it–in other words, for that one airline the situation is exactly as it is right now–why would I feel any differently about it than I do now? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/42 "2017-05-29T02:05:19Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I’d be ok with someone starting an airline with decreased security-- people should get to choose to take risks. But there is no way I would ever take it. Would you? I absolutely would, assuming it’s cheaper (or I make money with the time I save). The risk of dying in a terrorist attack on an airplane is tiny, and was tiny before increased security. Maybe it would increase with less security, but not by orders of magnitude. If you had $500 a year to spend on your own safety, spending it on stopping terrorist attacks would be downright stupid for a typical American. Statistically, you’d be far better off paying for a random MRI of your pancreas every five years, I suspect–to say nothing of things like non-slip bathtub liners or defensive driving lessons. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/43 "2017-05-29T04:30:30Z")
There’s the old joke about the statistician who always smuggled an (unarmed) bomb on board every time he flew, in order to feel safe. Because what are the odds of _two_ bombs on the same flight? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/44 "2017-05-29T05:13:20Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Not wanting to be blown out of the sky myself, I could not care less about how stringent the security measures. People are still less inconvenienced, but generally too spoiled to understand this, than the days when they had to travel weeks in a cramped space to reach their destination. I have no patience for security whiners myself. How high of a risk do you think would merit mandatory strip and cavity searches? I mean, apparently “too spoiled” to realize how important these security measures are, so what’s a little more fundamental safety, eh? Personally, I’d say that even _further_ inconvenience through beefed-up airport security would be justified when the risks of terrorism come anywhere near the risks of, say, road rage. When my bringing a laptop on a plane is _anywhere near_ as dangerous as you bringing your cell phone in your car. Right now, there are _many_ orders of magnitude between the two. And the comparison to boats is actually kinda hilarious. Like… _What_? Dude, technology has moved forward. A _lot_. And we’re hampering ourselves because we’re afraid of statistically negligible cases of mass murder. Would you accept this kind of security on roads if terrorists started killing people using cars to recreate scenes from Burnout 3: Takedown? > [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > Bottom line, while I do fully sympathize with your annoyance at an additional restriction on our lives being caused by terrorists, I disagree with you that a point could ever be reached where it is acceptable or logical to say “okay, from here on out, we accept being murdered as a normal part of flying.” Your odds of being killed in a terrorist attack are lower than your odds of being struck by lightning. Your odds of being killed in a terrorist attack that took place on an airplane is _several orders of magnitude lower_. At a certain point, there is such a thing as “acceptable risk”. Imagine treating some other part of your life the way you do air travel. Everyone around you would think you’re _crazy_. “Oh, can’t do pork, sorry, nitrates. Sorry, no, can’t drive, cars are too dangerous (_orders of magnitude more dangerous_ than planes). Sorry, no kale, that stuff might have some caesium from Fukushima in it.” ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/45 "2017-05-29T05:23:46Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Except they can’t, because they scan for that shit. Either the scans work, in which case there’s no risk, or they don’t, in which case moving the laptop bombs from the cabin to the cargo hold doesn’t actually do any good because there’s still a bomb on the plane and so everyone else is inconvenienced to no advantage. No. A bomb going off in the cargo hold would be more muffled / contained than the same bomb pressed against the Plexiglas window at, say, seat 27-A. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/46 "2017-05-29T05:26:17Z")
Pfft. Suffice it to say I have no problem at all with airport/airline security as it has manifested itself to date. And the people wringing their hands over it I can’t take seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/47 "2017-05-29T05:46:43Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Pfft. Suffice it to say I have no problem at all with airport/airline security as it has manifested itself to date. And the people wringing their hands over it I can’t take seriously. I think it depends where you are - for example, I flew back to Australia from Los Angeles via Auckland once and we had to go through the security rigarmole at LAX, spend 13 hours in a 747, then go through the security rigamarole in Auckland right after getting off the plane - _before we could go through customs and immigration_ - where literally the only place we’d been was on a 747 from LAX to AKL. Then we had to go through the security stuff _again_ to get on the plane to fly back to Australia. That’s excessive and unneccessary, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/48 "2017-05-29T05:58:07Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I think it depends where you are - for example, I flew back to Australia from Los Angeles via Auckland once and we had to go through the security rigarmole at LAX, spend 13 hours in a 747, then go through the security rigamarole in Auckland right after getting off the plane - _before we could go through customs and immigration_ - where literally the only place we’d been was on a 747 from LAX to AKL. > > Then we had to go through the security stuff _again_ to get on the plane to fly back to Australia. > > That’s excessive and unneccessary, IMO. I honestly don’t see get putting out by that, and I’ve experienced that same situation myself many times, in Japan or Taipei while flying to or from the US. The end of civilization as we know it, I’m just not seeing it here. A tempest in a teacup, that’s what I’m seeing. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/49 "2017-05-29T06:02:09Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I honestly don’t see get putting out by that, and I’ve experienced that same situation myself many times, in Japan or Taipei while flying to or from the US. The end of civilization as we know it, I’m just not seeing it here. A tempest in a teacup, that’s what I’m seeing. It’s an irritating, tiring, annoying pointless nuisance that accomplishes nothing and inconveniences hundreds of thousands of people every day. How does making my disabled, elderly dad take his fucking shoes off - causing him great discomfort, inconvenience and indignity - make flying safer for anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/50 "2017-05-29T06:06:06Z")
Oh god, the terrorists have won because some people can’t have their selfish way. Oh woe is we. The horror! The horror! ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/51 "2017-05-29T06:55:40Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I honestly don’t see get putting out by that, and I’ve experienced that same situation myself many times, in Japan or Taipei while flying to or from the US. The end of civilization as we know it, I’m just not seeing it here. A tempest in a teacup, that’s what I’m seeing. It’s a _huge_ pain in the ass, slows everything down, and is largely unnecessary. I have to arrive at the airport 4 hours early for international flights because I have to worry about being pulled out of line for a random search and questioning. Most of the time, I end up waiting around 2+ hours at the terminal, but it sure beats missing a transatlantic flight. That’s two hours I could have been working, or spending with my girlfriend, or even just _masturbating_ and it would have been considerably more well-spent. And all that, for what? To _maybe_ prevent a hundred deaths a year? Again, imagine if we responded to other things as excessively and disproportionately as we did here. Lung cancer is a real killer - so we’re banning smoking, alcohol, and coal power plants, and letting people go through checkpoints. > [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Oh god, the terrorists have won because some people can’t have their selfish way. Oh woe is we. The horror! The horror! If we reacted to road deaths the way we react to plane deaths, commerce would grind to a screeching halt. Think about that for a moment, then remember that your odds of dying in a plane _anything_ is orders of magnitude lower than your odds of dying on the road per kilometer, and that the vast majority of those plane deaths are not terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/52 "2017-05-29T07:52:48Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Oh god, the terrorists have won because some people can’t have their selfish way. Oh woe is we. The horror! The horror! Did you just call disabled people and the elderly “Selfish”??? ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/53 "2017-05-29T08:18:09Z")
Let’s just cut out the middle and just ban commercial flying! ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/54 "2017-05-29T10:17:12Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Let’s just cut out the middle and just ban commercial flying! Suits me; let’s ban professional sports while we’re at it. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/55 "2017-05-29T10:25:59Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Pfft. Suffice it to say I have no problem at all with airport/airline security as it has manifested itself to date. And the people wringing their hands over it I can’t take seriously. The Sactual elfish person is the one who due to the irrational fear supports imposing an irrational ban on items in the cabin and displacing them to the cargo where there is a documented [substantial risk](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-07/laptop-ban-spurred-by-terror-concern-raises-warning-of-fire-risk). > [@](#): > > The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration logged 31 cases last year in which lithium-based batteries either caught fire or smoldered on airline flights. Three cargo aircraft have been destroyed by fires attributed at least in part to lithium batteries, two of which were fatal accidents, according to the National Transportation Safety Board. But because the person is made so afraid of Al Qaeda Goes Boo, and afraid of the word “bomb” there is the support for the policy actually increasing the risk of the loss. But bomb! Run around scared! ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/56 "2017-05-29T10:26:45Z")
“Security theater! Tests have proven that TSA has only a 5% chance of finding a bomb! Why can’t we do something that actually improves security, as opposed to just going through the motions?” “We are worried about bombs in laptops, and since we can’t screen them, we are going to ban them.” “What a hassle! Let’s return to security theater!” ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/57 "2017-05-29T10:30:02Z")
[Risk](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/03/22/electronics-ban-lithium-ion-batteries/99502856/) > [@](#): > > Concerns about lithium batteries typically focus on large-scale shipments aboard cargo planes. Battery shipments were implicated – but not proven as the cause – in fiery crashes of an Asiana Airlines flight near South Korea in 2011, a UPS flight in United Arab Emirates in 2020 and a UPS flight in Philadelphia in 2006. > > FAA testing later found that halon gas used to suppress fires on planes doesn’t work well on batteries in a chemical reaction called a thermal-runaway, where temperatures reach 800 degrees Celsius. > > **A 2015 FAA report found "the uncontrollability of lithium battery fires can ultimately negate the capability of current aircraft cargo fire suppression systems, and can lead to a catastrophic failure of the airframe.”** > > The International Civil Aviation Organization, a branch of the United Nations that sets non-binding policies for airlines, decided last year to ban bulk shipments of lithium-ion batteries on international passenger flights. On cargo flights, the batteries must be charged to no more than 30%, to reduce the likelihood of fires. > > But after the Obama administration sought to adopt the international standard for domestic flights, the Trump administration has frozen the regulation for further review. If you americans did not push always for your stupid regulations to be imposed globally, I would be happy to ignore you. But like the shoes, this will creep out for no purpose and will raise actual risk stupidly. ---
**Author:** ![Nansbread1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Nansbread1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nansbread1)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/58 "2017-05-29T10:38:55Z")
I was being screened at a staff entry point at an airport. No passengers allowed in this area, only red pass holding staff. An obnoxious little twerp was being veryvery thorough with a low cost airline pilot. Taking a long time and examinng every item, swabbing it and then a very thorough pat down. Iwasnext in line and getting impatient too. The pilot said at the end, you do know that if i was a terrorist i could fly my plane in the next 20 min right into this search area. Oh boy…you should have seen the aftermath of that statement. Hope he didnt loose his job. The fact that i was not called as a witness means maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/59 "2017-05-29T10:53:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > “Security theater! Tests have proven that TSA has only a 5% chance of finding a bomb! Why can’t we do something that actually improves security, as opposed to just going through the motions?” > > “We are worried about bombs in laptops, and since we can’t screen them, we are going to ban them.” > > “What a hassle! Let’s return to security theater!” When people say “Let’s do something that actually improves security”, they usually mean things like “Better intelligence sharing” or “explosive residue detectors in the holds of aircraft” or “requiring aircraft to have always-on GPS locators” or things like that. Also, electronics have been carried on planes pretty much forever. A bomb in a transister radio was what bought down the Pan Am flight over Lockerbie - yet they didn’t ban transistor radios or walkmans etc from flights after that, despite those things actually being considerably _less_ useful on aeroplanes than a laptop or a tablet nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![pullin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@pullin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pullin)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/60 "2017-05-29T12:08:31Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > And they would be rubbing their hands with glee if they were allowed to slip bombs on planes easily. Don’t like security? Then don’t fucking fly anywhere. Accepted. I now travel _exclusively_ in my own RV. Whether business or pleasure I handle my own transport and lodging. I refuse to participate in the humiliating experience that modern travel has become. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608.md?page=4)