# Airport security - when do we say "enough"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2017, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608 "2017-05-28T18:20:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/81 "2017-05-29T22:40:35Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I am a total yellow bellied coward when it comes to authority, but I got pretty close to getting arrested by the TSA at the airport in Orlando. I was returning from a vacation with my six year old daughter. > > She walked happily through the scanner ahead of me, and no problems. I walked through, no problem. Then the TSA guy said “Sir, we’ve selected her for extra pat-down screening” or whatever the term is for when they look under your clothes. > > I thought I’d misunderstood. “Okay, where can she wait while you search me…” > > “No, we’re searching her. You can be present while we…” > > “No,” I said. > > The guy stiffened. “Well, sir, we are.” > > “No,” I said, “You’re not, sir. You are not searching my little girl.” > > “We have to. If you’ll…” > > “I don’t care. You aren’t searching her. It’s not happening.” > > I’d say “I don’t know what got into me” but of course I do know what got into me; I was a man protecting his daughter. My fight or flight response had been triggered, and what I was doing was objectively risky and stupid, but I could no more stop myself than I could grow a new arm. > > “Well, sir, you’ll just have to…” > > “Oh, I don’t think so,” I said, and crossed my arms. > > Well, the guy could have gone one of two ways, I guess. One way is he could quite “rightly” have tried to search her and then I would have tried to physically stop and gotten tasered or shot and it would have been all over the news and I wouldn’t sued if I’d survived, or I could have at least gotten arrested and they’d have had to call the Canadian consulate and it would have been in the news. > > The second way was he could have decided he was asking to do an objectively stupid and insulting thing, apologize, and just carry on. > > He chose Option 2, thank heavens. So he was an okay guy. I’m not proud I did that, because I didn’t really feel like I chose to. > > So anyway, to answer the OP’s question, this is going to get worse until people stop flying. My wife no longer wants to travel to the USA for vacation, in part because of this shit. I won’t fly anywhere I can possibly drive to in the USA, because of this shit, and my enthusiasm for travel to the States is declining fast. If it gets worse, Americans will stop flying domestically as much as they currently do - it’s happened before, as it did after 9/11. I am usually very pro-American but you did the right thing. I would have responded the same way. I apologize on behalf of my country. TSA treats us the same way but most of us are very nice once you get out of the cell blocks (security screenings). I am not an aggressive person either but I would probably lose my shit if someone told me that they were going to molest and traumatize one of my daughters for no reason (that is really what they are saying and I would tell them that). Not going to happen. In unrelated news, there are semi-secret security checkpoints at most major airports. They are mostly used by flight attendants and pilots and they aren’t publicized but anyone can use them if you can find them. The wait time is usually single minutes. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/82 "2017-05-29T22:41:08Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > “Security theater! Tests have proven that TSA has only a 5% chance of finding a bomb! Why can’t we do something that actually improves security, as opposed to just going through the motions?” > > “We are worried about bombs in laptops, and since we can’t screen them, we are going to ban them.” > > “What a hassle! Let’s return to security theater!” If I may play Devil’s Advocate for a moment: while it is maddening and disturbing that the TSA has such a dismal record of detecting bombs during drills, doesn’t that performance (or lack thereof) suggest a need for tightening up security? I’m sure more severe security measures have been proposed and banning laptops in cabins on aircraft is one of them. IOW, the awful truth that the TSA is so bad at screening for bombs would seem to call for GREATER security measures, not the same or lesser. One can presume that the TSA consists entirely of incompetent morons or one can presume that is it very, very difficult to detect bombs smuggled aboard aircraft. The truth is probably some of both. Again, I’m just Old Nick’s counselor. I don’t necessarily want to see laptops banned on planes. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/83 "2017-05-29T23:02:16Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > If I may play Devil’s Advocate for a moment: while it is maddening and disturbing that the TSA has such a dismal record of detecting bombs during drills, doesn’t that performance (or lack thereof) suggest a need for tightening up security? When was the last time a US-originating plane blew up in midair due to something a passenger brought on board (so, not TWA 800)? Seems to me that the current system works plenty well as it is. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/84 "2017-05-29T23:26:08Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > When was the last time a US-originating plane blew up in midair due to something a passenger brought on board (so, not TWA 800)? > > Seems to me that the current system works plenty well as it is. Right And let’s not forget, the 9-11 hijackers took advantage of conventional wisdom- cooperate until we can get the plane on the ground. The actual plan was innovative, and as we saw over PA once people know the plan, they won’t cooperate. Even if they got guns on board, I suspect the passengers would make sure they didn’t reach the target (I suppose there’s a bullets:passengers ratio question, but you get the point). It’s all bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/85 "2017-05-29T23:27:39Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I am usually very pro-American but you did the right thing. I would have responded the same way. I apologize on behalf of my country. In fairness, the guy backed down. He did the right thing. I lucked out. Look, I’m not going to pretend Canada hires the best and brightest to man the security at the airports and guard the borders; I’ve crossed that border both ways, and some complicated stuff has come up from time to time, and I can assure you the Canadian agents are just as likely to be stupid goddamn jackasses. If the Canadian government decided to tighten security I am totally,completely, I’d-bet-money-confident that it would increase irritating and injustice a lot more than it would security. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/86 "2017-05-29T23:44:28Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > In unrelated news, there are semi-secret security checkpoints at most major airports. They are mostly used by flight attendants and pilots and they aren’t publicized but anyone can use them if you can find them. The wait time is usually single minutes. This is not true at all. While there are specialized checkpoints for flight crew, the general public cannot use them. Under some circumstances, even credentialed crew can’t and then they have to go through the main checkpoints. Back to my OP… I don’t think it’s likely that the flying public is going to spontaneously take a stand by refusing to fly. Security creep is insidious, and not everyone flies frequently enough to be affected personally. They gripe when they go on their vacation, maybe complain on FB and that’s it. What I would like to see happen, and I think this is highly unlikely too, is a politician needs to make this their pet issue. They’d have to stake their career on it, it would be hugely unpopular, but a sufficiently charismatic and passionate person could move the needle on this issue. Think of a Bernie Sanders type talking about the TSA instead of economic inequality. Also, I’d like a pony. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/87 "2017-05-29T23:51:51Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > In unrelated news, there are semi-secret security checkpoints at most major airports. They are mostly used by flight attendants and pilots and they aren’t publicized What in the world are you talking about? The "Known Crewmember Access Point"s aren’t remotely secret at all–they’re very clearly marked, so that those who are authorized to use them can actually find them. > [@](#): > > but anyone can use them if you can find them. No, only those with specific authorization can use them, and if anyone else tries they’ll likely find themselves in a world of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/88 "2017-05-29T23:52:51Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > Also, I’d like a pony. I hate anyone that ever had a pony when they were growing up. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/89 "2017-05-30T00:19:48Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > This is not true at all. While there are specialized checkpoints for flight crew, the general public cannot use them. Under some circumstances, even credentialed crew can’t and then they have to go through the main checkpoints. You can slap me on the ass and call me a bitch if you want but unmarked security checkpoints certainly exist and I use them frequently. What airport do you want? The ones I use most frequently are Denver, Boston Logan and Dallas-Fort Worth. They all have unmarked checkpoints. You just have to know where they are and how get to them. Most people don’t. Don’t call me a liar. It is completely true but you are going to have to look it up for yourself to start to understand reality. It is a simple life hack and not that difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/90 "2017-05-30T00:32:09Z")
Here is the one for Denver. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/ohLRiiGK7ho/hqdefault.jpg "Denver Airport Secret") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohLRiiGK7ho) ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/91 "2017-05-30T00:35:41Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > You can slap me on the ass and call me a bitch if you want but unmarked security checkpoints certainly exist and I use them frequently. What airport do you want? The ones I use most frequently are Denver, Boston Logan and Dallas-Fort Worth. They all have unmarked checkpoints. You just have to know where they are and how get to them. Most people don’t. > > Don’t call me a liar. It is completely true but you are going to have to look it up for yourself to start to understand reality. It is a simple life hack and not that difficult. Didn’t call you a liar, and I don’t know why you are getting upset about this. There’s no need to question anyone’s understanding of reality - I’m open to being corrected. That said, I’m an aviation professional credentialed to use the KCM portals. It sounded as if that’s what you were referring to, and they most definitely cannot be used by the general public. There are multiple checkpoints at many airports, perhaps you’re referring to those? Some places have more than one checkpoint for different parts of terminals, and I suppose some of them could be seen as a little out of the way - is that what you mean? Either way, dial it back man. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/92 "2017-05-30T00:40:05Z")
Technologically, how difficult is it to have a screening machine whereby a passenger can walk through it, or at least, stand in it for 10 seconds - luggage and all - and the machine does the X-ray screening, scatter-wave imaging, chemical-sniffing, face-analyzing, identity-checking all in one? Tech 10-20 years away? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/93 "2017-05-30T00:57:55Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > Didn’t call you a liar, and I don’t know why you are getting upset about this. There’s no need to question anyone’s understanding of reality - I’m open to being corrected. > > That said, I’m an aviation professional credentialed to use the KCM portals. It sounded as if that’s what you were referring to, and they most definitely cannot be used by the general public. There are multiple checkpoints at many airports, perhaps you’re referring to those? Some places have more than one checkpoint for different parts of terminals, and I suppose some of them could be seen as a little out of the way - is that what you mean? > > Either way, dial it back man. Sheesh. I don’t get mad about anything. Kiss! What I am telling you is that there are secret security points at major airports. It is just a simple fact and you have to know where they are. I took me a while to figure out how that worked but it made life much easier after I did. Denver is the most extreme example. I could have spent 2 hours in the security line or walked upstairs and been done in 5 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/94 "2017-05-30T00:59:11Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I don’t get mad about anything. Kiss! What I am telling you is that there are secret security points at major airports. It is just a simple fact and you have to know where they are. I took me a while to figure out how that worked but it made life much easier after I did. They’re not secret. If they were secret, there wouldn’t literally be signs saying, “Hey, go here!” like there were in that video you posted. Out of the way or lesser-known, perhaps, but that’s not at all the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/95 "2017-05-30T01:13:59Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > They’re not secret. If they were secret, there wouldn’t literally be signs saying, “Hey, go here!” like there were in that video you posted. > > Out of the way or lesser-known, perhaps, but that’s not at all the same thing. I guess we are dealing with the dumbest people in the world then. Everyone herds up like sheep when all you have you do is take escalator to the next floor and go through open security that takes about 90 seconds. I figured that out but most people don’t. That doesn’t say much about human nature now does it? ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/96 "2017-05-30T01:26:03Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I guess we are dealing with the dumbest people in the world then. Everyone herds up like sheep when all you have you do is take escalator to the next floor and go through open security that takes about 90 seconds. I figured that out but most people don’t. That doesn’t say much about human nature now does it? Nooo… We’re dealing with poor signage at airports. Another issue I could talk about at length. But yeah, they’re not “secret”. I know all the airports you’re talking about. Using Boston’s terminal B as an example, there are several checkpoints. One of which is way down the end that often seems lightly used, and if you entered from the opposite side you likely wouldn’t see it. But it’s a normal TSA checkpoint. KCM is a different entity, and I’ve heard people talk about them as if they were “secret” because they see crew ducking around the main checkpoints to use them. Not trying to junior mod here, but I gotta say this distinction doesn’t seem worth your earlier ire. Can we please get back to figuring out what will actually cause change in our security culture? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/97 "2017-05-30T04:20:43Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > Not trying to junior mod here, but I gotta say this distinction doesn’t seem worth your earlier ire. Can we please get back to figuring out what will actually cause change in our security culture? There is no ire intended although, oddly enough, the information about alternative security checkpoints is probably the only useful, practical advise in this thread. Overturning bureaucracy is very difficult. It is much easier to teach people to work around it. That is my strategy these days. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/98 "2017-05-30T04:55:38Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > If I may play Devil’s Advocate for a moment: while it is maddening and disturbing that the TSA has such a dismal record of detecting bombs during drills, doesn’t that performance (or lack thereof) suggest a need for tightening up security? I’m sure more severe security measures have been proposed and banning laptops in cabins on aircraft is one of them. > > IOW, the awful truth that the TSA is so bad at screening for bombs would seem to call for GREATER security measures, not the same or lesser. One can presume that the TSA consists entirely of incompetent morons or one can presume that is it very, very difficult to detect bombs smuggled aboard aircraft. The truth is probably some of both. > > Again, I’m just Old Nick’s counselor. I don’t necessarily want to see laptops banned on planes. I disagree. I, (like, I’m sure, most people) recognize the need for security at airports, it’s just that the current methods employed by the TSA seem to be mostly about giving the illusion of security. It’s not that there needs to be more or less security, but more rethinking about what can be done and what is most effective. Using the laptop ban as an example: as pointed out, making people stow their laptops doesn’t remove the potential bomb from the plane, so what is really the point of it? It’s a complex issue indeed. For instance: reinforcing the cockpit doors and adding locks that can be “locked out” by the pilot may have led to the downing of [Germanwings 9525](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525). I think the biggest problems stem from the inherent inertia of govt bureaucracy. once TSA has implemented a security measure to respond to a specific threat, that’s it - done and done. There doesn’t seem to be alot of revisiting; examining the effectiveness and continued necessity of the measure. I’m probably oversimplifying and underrating the TSA’s review policy, but I dont think I’m overstating its lack of effectiveness. It’s clearly not the best way to do this. We need to keep our Representatives on the transportation safety subcommittee committed to improving the process. This [article](http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-schindler-tsa-20150605-story.html) has some interesting food for thought > [@](#): > > So what does reform look like? A revamped TSA must focus on quality, not just quantity, of personnel. And it must abandon the inefficient assembly-line approach in favor of intelligence-driven screening. Terrorists are evolving and learning; we need to evolve and learn too. mc ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/99 "2017-05-30T06:22:52Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I still wanna know why we have to take off our shoes, but not our underwear! :rolleyes: > > Like you said, security was enough when the reinforced cockpit doors. All the rest is theater. But people are sheep. And an astounding (to me) number of folk believe that no inconvenience/expense is too much, if there is a chance it might save one life. > > I’d love to see a good accounting of the costs of increased airport security, everything from TSA staffing, to time spent in line. > > Really limited in ways to “push back.” The main tool is to decline to fly. But the majority of folk have demonstrated that they are willing to accept increased indignities so long as they get inexpensive airfares. This is not true. We and many of our friends do not fly nearly as much as we used to. We used to love to fly. We now do anything not to fly. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608/100 "2017-05-30T06:46:10Z")
Will security at the vacuum-tube train station be just as miserable as the airport? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airport-security-when-do-we-say-enough/787608.md?page=6)