# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/181 "2014-07-12T23:42:26Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > We all know that. > > Damuri seemed unaware that Jordan was considered Palestine or that the PLO had fought a short, bloody, ultimately failed war to turn it into a Palestinian state. It’s not abysmal ignorance to refer to “Palestine” and mean the West Bank and Gaza. It’s arguably wrong, but, then, it’s also wrong to refer to Israel and Gaza as being in the “Middle East.” The terms have changed over the course of the decades. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/182 "2014-07-13T00:08:49Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Anyone care to defend Israel here? I’m not sure what the right thing for Israel to do here is, but airstrikes against civilian areas can’t be it. Even just in terms of Israeli interests, I don’t see how they’re helping themselves. Having images of dead Palestinian children on the news just alienates their allies and encourages further attacks. If an enemy combatant fired hundreds of rockets at my country and I was president I’d declare war and hunt them down. If they did this on a yearly bases I’d declare war with a “winner takes all” intent and take their. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/183 "2014-07-13T00:23:28Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > It’s not abysmal ignorance to refer to “Palestine” and mean the West Bank and Gaza. It’s arguably wrong, but, then, it’s also wrong to refer to Israel and Gaza as being in the “Middle East.” The terms have changed over the course of the decades. No, Jordan was always part of Palestine under the Ottoman Empire and may Palestinians have long argued that it was part of Palestine and fought a war to turn it into a Palestinian state. As for your reference to “the Middle East” I’m not sure your point. Are you trying to contrast that to “the Near East”? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/184 "2014-07-13T00:48:38Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No, Jordan was always part of Palestine under the Ottoman Empire and may Palestinians have long argued that it was part of Palestine and fought a war to turn it into a Palestinian state. > > As for your reference to “the Middle East” I’m not sure your point. > > Are you trying to contrast that to “the Near East”? Far as that goes, I didn’t know that a war had been fought to try to turn Jordan into a Palestinian state. As far as ignorance goes, I’ve got plenty, and won’t deny it. Does the war have a convenient name (like, you know, “War of the Spanish Succession”) so I can look up more about it? Can you (and I am not being sarcastic here, but honestly open to suggestions) recommend a decent book on the subject? Er…maybe something slightly more directed at people new to the affair? (I know a guy whose views on Israel and Palestine are almost entirely informed by Leon Uris novels… I do not want to be that kind of guy!) re the “Middle East,” in the days long gone by when the Balfour Declaration was headline news, Palestine and the Levant and the Sinai and Jerusalem were referred to as “Near East.” Over time, this usage has changed, and, today, nearly everyone says “Middle East.” [There’s actually a nice Wikipedia article about this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East)– the top three sections cover terminology. But, really, I was just giving an example of pointless pedantry, obviously an exaggeration. More seriously, I think the best forms of debate try to enlighten as well as criticize. Not, “You don’t know what you’re talking about,” but, rather, “The truth is more complicated, but here’s a rough outline…” It makes it more clear what the debate is actually about. (I hate it when the debate degenerates into, “You didn’t read my post,” or “Go back and read what I actually said,” or “No, it’s you who misunderstands,” etc. At that point, communication has essentially failed.) (And what’s the saddest of all is that Israeli-Palestinian communication has essentially failed, and I want to see some sort of talks resume. But I guess we have to wait for the weapons fire to abate first…) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/185 "2014-07-13T01:10:11Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No, Jordan was always part of Palestine under the Ottoman Empire and may Palestinians have long argued that it was part of Palestine and fought a war to turn it into a Palestinian state. There was much heated argument about that on the Palestinian talk show feed I sometimes watched on C-Band. When the British and the WWI victors were slicing the area up in the late 1910s and early 1920s, what area did they call “Trans Jordan”, and why? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/186 "2014-07-13T01:39:37Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > There was much heated argument about that on the Palestinian talk show feed I sometimes watched on C-Band. > > When the British and the WWI victors were slicing the area up in the late 1910s and early 1920s, what area did they call “Trans Jordan”, and why? Well, see? This is just useless. Instead of playing “Riddle me this,” why not state the facts (or at least an opinion) so we can move forward. I’ve seen Transjordan on maps. Tell us why! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/187 "2014-07-13T01:42:21Z")
Transjordan was all the British Mandate for Palestine on the east side of the Jordan, hence the name (trans=across). It was set up as an emirate under Abdullah in 1920 and administered separately from the rest of the Mandate territory, in accordance with the French-British agreement for an Arab state east of the Jordan… ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/188 "2014-07-13T02:45:51Z")
If anything, Israel has been doing easy on Hamas. They’d be well within their rights to invade, disestablish Hamas altogether, execute its leaders, and establish a direct occupation government. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/189 "2014-07-13T03:33:53Z")
I think the best summary of the situation is here: [www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-07-11/is-hamas-trying-to-get-gazans-killed](http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-07-11/is-hamas-trying-to-get-gazans-killed) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/190 "2014-07-13T04:28:19Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Transjordan was all the British Mandate for Palestine on the east side of the Jordan, hence the name (trans=across). It was set up as an emirate under Abdullah in 1920 and administered separately from the rest of the Mandate territory, in accordance with the French-British agreement for an Arab state east of the Jordan… Thank you, Captain Amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/191 "2014-07-13T04:44:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If anything, Israel has been doing easy on Hamas. They’d be well within their rights to invade, disestablish Hamas altogether, execute its leaders, and establish a direct occupation government. Er…not quite, I think. Executing the leaders of a country – or even a non-state polity – defeated in war is against international law as currently understood. They might be within their rights to put the leadership on trial for war crimes, but it would be politically disadvantageous. Israel’s closest supporters would urge them, most emphatically, not to pursue that. Otherwise, all very true. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/192 "2014-07-13T04:57:03Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > [You’re not recalling very well](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Military_Tribunal_for_the_Far_East). Really, so they executed the emperor? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/193 "2014-07-13T05:15:17Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > That would have been a good idea. > > Jews have always been hated, but Arabs were more than happy to sell Zionists their land. I don’t know that Jews were hated more in the middle east than they were anywhere else at the time. Or was there a particular hatred of Jews in the middle east? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/194 "2014-07-13T05:17:28Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Do you think you’re saying something he’d object to? > > You do realize Netanyahu proposed exactly that in his book don’t you? > > The “federation” with Jordan has been a proposed solution by right-wing Israelis for decades. > > You do realize that had you made the above post on the West Bank you’d have put your life in danger don’t you? cite? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/195 "2014-07-13T05:20:30Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er… You do realize that Jordan is part of Palestine don’t you? Oh? Is Jordan part of what we consider the occupied territories today or are you playing historical word games? > [@](#): > > Can I ask how you can make so many impassioned pleas for the Palestinians yet seem to know so little about them, their culture, their history, or their cause? How is that relevant? Or are you about to appeal to authority? > [@](#): > > You really ought to pick up a book or two about the subject, because it really is fascinating. no. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/196 "2014-07-13T05:26:36Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > A lot of ignorance here. Zionists bought the land, from its legal owners. Really??? So all of what is Israel today was purchased from people who had the right to sell it? Pffft. > [@](#): > > When they formed a country, the country is not just a Zionist country, everyone in it, including Arab Muslims have full legal and political rights. By “they” you mean the zionists right? > [@](#): > > People often pretend that when the Jews took over all the Muslims were forced out at gunpoint and denied all civil rights. This is in fact not what happened Who pretends that? > [@](#): > > but it did happen to historic Jewish populations all over the Middle East after the formation of Israel. So that justifies the formation of the state of Israel in the middle of occupied land? What percentage of the people in the state of Israel a year before its formation were in favor of its formation? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/197 "2014-07-13T05:38:09Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > We all know that. > > Damuri seemed unaware that Jordan was considered Palestine or that the PLO had fought a short, bloody, ultimately failed war to turn it into a Palestinian state. You should really learn to read. In post 2 Malthus asked: What would you do? In post 4 I replied: I’d get out of those settlements and give the Palestinians their own state. In Post 73 handsomeharry said: Me too. I’d call it Jordan. In post 86 I responded: There is already a country called Jordan. I think the Palestinians want to call theirs Palestine. But if you want to go back in time to what we could have done differently, perhaps the Zionists shouldn’t have created a country for themselves in the middle of land that was already occupied. Then you make a somewhat non sequitor reference to some irrelevant historical trivia. English isn’t your first language is it? I mean seriously, in what way does anyone today consider Jordan part of Palestine? We get it, you know a lot about the area but unless there is some knowledge you have that is not being communicated in the news that would make my opinion invalid in some way, what exactly are you trying to achieve? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/198 "2014-07-13T05:55:32Z")
> **[Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine)** > > Palestine may refer to: > **[Emirate of Transjordan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirate_of_Transjordan)** > > The Emirate of Transjordan (Arabic: إمارة شرق الأردن, romanized: Imārat Sharq al-Urdun, lit. 'the emirate east of the Jordan'), officially known as the Amirate of Trans-Jordan, was a British protectorate established on 11 April 1921, which remained as such until achieving formal independence in 1946. > After the Ottoman defeat in World War I, the Transjordan region was administered within OETA East; after the British withdrawal in 1919, this region gained de facto recognition as part of the Hash... So I can see where Palestine and Jordan were once jointly ruled as Transjordan but i don’t see where Jordan was called Palestine anytime in recent history. Can you cite a reference that jordan was once part of Paestine? Or are you saying that because the Brits controlled both under a legal document called [Mandate for Palestine - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_for_Palestine_(legal_instrument)) that this means taht Jordan was once considered part of Palestine. In what way was your comment relevant to the discussion or was it just a non sequitor interjection to display your deep deep knowledge of the area and its issues. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/199 "2014-07-13T07:00:40Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > cite? Oh my God, is this a serious question? You’re actually demanding a cite for where Netanyahu, Ariel Sharon and the rest of the right-wing members of Likud proposed federating the West Bank with Jordan as a solution to the Intifadas? Are you next going to demand a cite that Netanyahu is a Zionist? Ok, you can check out his book. A Place Among the Nations: Israel and the World. [http://www.amazon.com/Place-Among-Nations-Israel-World/dp/0593034465/ref=sr\_1\_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1405233258&sr=8- 3&keywords=Israel%3A+A+Place+among+the+nations](http://www.amazon.com/Place-Among-Nations-Israel-World/dp/0593034465/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1405233258&sr=8-3&keywords=Israel%3A+A+Place+among+the+nations) I’m genuinely shocked that you’d never heard of what’s usually called “The Jordan option”. You’ve seriously never heard Israeli leaders or their supporters proclaim “Jordan is Palestine”? [http://www.merip.org/mero/interventions/ariel-sharon-jordan-option](http://www.merip.org/mero/interventions/ariel-sharon-jordan-option) > [@](#): > > In the long term, the Israeli premier hopes that the Palestinian state will meld with Jordan. His assumption is that unilateral disengagement from Gaza and parts of the West Bank, his plan for a carefully managed transition away from direct Israeli rule over the majority of the Palestinians, will set this process in motion. Over time, Sharon calculates, contiguity between “Palestine” and its neighbor to the east, as well as increased trade, cultural ties and the “democratization” championed by the Bush administration, will induce Palestinians on both the West and East Banks of the Jordan to agitate for Palestinian-Jordanian federation themselves. If one assumes that Sharon has quietly held on to his once openly expressed belief that “Jordan is Palestine,” > [@](#): > > **Damuri Ajashi** > Oh? Is Jordan part of what we consider the occupied territories today or are you playing historical word games? Er… no and nobody has claimed it was, though the Occupied territories, or at least the West Bank, were once part of Jordan and at that time nobody classified them as occupied. However what is now Jordan was classified as part of Palestine under Ottoman rule. Under the British who took over front the Ottomans and split off Palestine from Southern Syria it was classified as “Mandatory Palestine”. > [@](#): > > [Emirate of Transjordan - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirate_of_Transjordan) > > So I can see where Palestine and Jordan were once jointly ruled as Transjordan but i don’t see where Jordan was called Palestine anytime in recent history. Can you cite a reference that jordan was once part of Paestine? Or are you saying that because the Brits controlled both under a legal document called [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...gal\_instrument](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...gal_instrument)) that this means taht Jordan was once considered part of Palestine. You should learn to read your cites more carefully. You’ll notice it states that Transjordan was created in 1921 and split off from Palestine. This caused a huge amount of anger among the Zionists who felt betrayed. No offense, but this isn’t the first time you’ve had this issue with reading your cites. It wasn’t that long ago you were strenuously arguing that Madeline Albright had to be hostile to the Arab causes because she was a Jew and when it was pointed out to you that she wasn’t a Jew and hadn’t been raised as a Jew but was a Christian you rather furiously for several posts kept insisting that she was a Jew because her parents were Jews and kept pointing to her wikipedia entry and failed to read the section where it mentioned that she was raised as a Christian and still was a practicing one. When asked why you were so sure she was a Jew and why you were so certain she couldn’t be supportive of Arab causes you confessed you knew nothing about her other than that her name came up when you googled “Jewish Secretary of State” and therefore you assumed she had to be hostile to their cause. > [@](#): > > Quote: > You really ought to pick up a book or two about the subject, because it really is fascinating. > **Damuri Ajashi** > no. Ok, this is really odd. You clearly are very passionate about this issue yet you continually refuse to ever read anything about the subject. No offense, but that comes across more like someone who’s made up his mind and is afraid to read anything that might challenge it than as someone who’s genuinely curious about the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/200 "2014-07-13T08:18:44Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Really, so they executed the emperor? :rolleyes: You can’t be serious. You said: > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah, I said they weren’t identical situations? I don’t recall the leaders of Japan being rounded up and executed for war crimes. Apparently you never heard of the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal, or have much understanding of who the actual leadership was in Imperial Japan. Here’s a clue: it wasn’t the emperor, who was little more than a figurehead. It wasn’t the civilian government, which by law the Japanese military could cause to fall at any time by simply having the war minister resign and refusing to appoint a new one. Two prime ministers and a war minister were found guilty, sentenced to death and hung. Of the sixteen major defendants sentenced to life imprisonment there are three war ministers, two navy ministers, two prime ministers, a finance minister, a president of the Cabinet Planning Board, an Ambassador to Italy, an Ambassador to Germany, a Chief Cabinet Secretary, a chief of the Military Affairs Bureau and the Lord Keeper of the Privy Seal. If you think this wasn’t the leadership of Imperial Japan, you’re delusional. > [@Trinopus](#): > > Far as that goes, I didn’t know that a war had been fought to try to turn Jordan into a Palestinian state. As far as ignorance goes, I’ve got plenty, and won’t deny it. Does the war have a convenient name (like, you know, “War of the Spanish Succession”) so I can look up more about it? Can you (and I am not being sarcastic here, but honestly open to suggestions) recommend a decent book on the subject? Er…maybe something slightly more directed at people new to the affair? I assume he’s referring to [Black September](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan), the first paragraph in wiki gives a good summary: > [@](#): > > The term Black September (Arabic: أيلول الأسود‎; aylūl al-aswad) refers to the Jordanian Civil War that began in September 1970 and ended in July of 1971. The conflict was fought between the two major components of the Jordanian population, the Palestinians represented by the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) under the leadership of Yasser Arafat and the native Jordanians represented by the Jordanian Armed Forces under the leadership of King Hussein.[5] At its core the civil war sought to determine if Jordan would be ruled by the Palestine Liberation Organisation or the Hashemite Monarchy.[6] The war resulted in the deaths of thousands of people, the vast majority Palestinian.[3] Armed conflict ended with the expulsion of the PLO leadership and thousands of Palestinian fighters to Lebanon. Here’s where politics make for strange bedfellows; Syria intervened in the war on the side of the PLO, invading Jordan. The Syrian Air Force however remained conspicuously absent so after some initial success and panic caused by the Syrian intervention, the Jordanian Air Force proceeded to pound the Syrian Army unmolested by the Syrian Air Force and drive them off. It was apparently made clear through back channels that Israel would intervene if the Syrian Air Force showed up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=11)