# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/321 "2014-07-16T03:26:29Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Even if this worked the way you believe it does, what are you going to do in the interim? Between “extremists firing artillery at civilian centres” and “extremists voting in elections”, you’d have up to four years of “extremists have free access to civilian centres”, and I can guarantee that they would be bloody. If Palestinians are to be given full Israeli citizenship, they must first abandon the terror tactics that are the reason they are kept at arms length today. Why would they need terrorism once they are in the majority of a single Israeli state? Are you afraid of payback? > [@](#): > > Their identity is one of unending violence _because the Palestinians are trying to murder them_. Do not gloss over that point. There are parts of the Wb where Palestinians enjoy almost unrestricted autonomy. no embargo, no IDF presence, nothing. And yet they do not fire rockets into Israel. Are they just slackers? > [@](#): > > You cannot turn your enemies into friends simply by baring your throat to them. You reject out of hand the possibility that Palestine would simply stop trying to murder civilians, but that is a necessary prerequisite to peace in the region. Of course. So why not start with the ones that aren’t trying to murder civilians? > [@](#): > > Has having a stake in a country’s survival ever stopped Muslim extremists attempting to turn _women_ into second class citizens? What? huh? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/322 "2014-07-16T03:31:53Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I have heard people say that they fear that a majority Muslim population will turn Israel into a muslim theocracy. I don’t know how you convince people that the palestinians are not religious zealots. Not all Palestinians are religious zealots, but Hamas are. Hamas wants a one state solution, but it wants that one state to be a religious theocracy without Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/323 "2014-07-16T03:35:26Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Thanks everyone for the replies to the thread. Trying to refocus a bit on the OP (I’m really _not_ interested in debating Israel’s right to exist, that ship has sailed decades ago)… > > What do you all think would be the best way for Israel to try to achieve the goal of peace at this point? > > I would have said that a start would be to announce a suspension of airstrikes and ask that Hamas also suspend their attacks, and for the two sides to come to the negotiating table. Which it seems is basically what they did, only to be rejected by Hamas. > > I don’t ask what Hamas should do, because I think it’s obvious: They should accept the cease fire. Hamas has no intention of stopping until they can wring some sort of win out of the Israelis. Not that they seem overly concerned about deaths in Gaza except as a pretext for more attacks on Israel. I’d hazard a guess that Israel imagines that by ensuring the West Bank economy expands due to a more or less stable, secure and violence free environment it can act as a catalyst to push Hamas out of Gaza or at lest undermine their legitimacy. Then again, where’s Hamas going to go? Egypt? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/324 "2014-07-16T03:40:01Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > If Mexico and Canada launched hundreds of rocket strikes into American cities, kidnapped and murdered our citizens, and used every opportunity they could to publicly announce that their goal was the utter destruction of the United States, I sincerely hope that our response would be much harsher than air strikes on the launch sites. I have not criticized the response, go ahead and look back trough the thread. In fact I have said that Israel generally has a fairly good civilian casualty ratio but people make it sound like these crazy bloodthristy palestinians are attacking Israel for no good reason. And I am saying that if anyone did to us what Israel did to the Palestinians, we wouldn’t just welcome them into the neighborhood or just give up after they kicked our asses a few times. > [@](#): > > The Palestinians want something Israel cannot give; Jerusalem (oh, and also the complete destruction of Israel). As long as this demand continues to be made, Jerusalem can’t negotiate. Even fig-leaf gestures like completely withdrawing from Gaza and giving it to Palestine just make things worse. Palestine will not negotiate in good faith, and until such time as they do, Israel must keep the boot down. Its not the Palestinians that want these things. Its Hamas. Do you think the withdrawal from Gaza caused the Palestinian attacks or did one thing just happen to occur after the other? At some point Israel’s boot may not be enough or others might start to feel it is too much. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/325 "2014-07-16T03:43:01Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > . . . What do you all think would be the best way for Israel to try to achieve the goal of peace at this point? . . . Re-enter negotiations. (Which, I believe, they’re open to doing.) Try to cut back a little on the settlement building. This is what has turned away a lot of American liberals. Jimmy Carter famously spoke out against this. Support for Israel used to be universal in the U.S. Now, it’s become a right-wing issue, with very little left-wing support. Israel would benefit by getting American liberals back behind it again. (On the other hand, they also benefit by building settlements, so what do I know? Maybe the trade off is worth it to them, or at least maybe they perceive it that way.) > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > . . . I think a two state plan could be a huge failure but I don’t see it as irreversible if it turns out to be a mistake. And there is a chance that if it is handled right and WB sees economic prosperity, then the folks over in Gaza will wonder why their leaders have been fighting to keep that peace prosperity from them for so long. I certainly think that if the WB sees peace and prosperity then there is a good chance that the WB won’t turn into a Hamas stronghold. I believe a two-state solution really is the best way to go…but not quite right just now. I’d try to premise it on a period of non-violence. Every rocket attack resets the clock. And, yeah, the two-state thing is certainly reversible, just as the withdrawal from Gaza could be. The tanks could roll right in tomorrow. (I’m dreadfully afraid that’s what is going to happen.) If a Palestinian State acts badly…that’s an act of war. And, right now, it isn’t one that a P.S. could conceivably win. And that just puts us right back where we are now: a military occupation. (I’d let the P.S. know, right up front, if there’s a war, then there will be permanent seizure of land. That’s one of the things wars do: they change borders. You’d think that knowing any attack could cost them a bunch of real estate would discourage attacks. Gaza, right now, is immune from that threat because it’s so damn small, there isn’t any part of it that could be seized!) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/326 "2014-07-16T04:09:44Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Wrong. Palestine is only occupied territory because Palestine and its allies attacked Israel first. In the same way, Germany was only occupied territory because they attacked the Allies first. Instigating a war for the purpose of conquest is immoral, but fighting back against such a war is not. They only attacked because the Zionists declared its independence as a Jewish state. It was not an unprovoked attack and it was not a war of conquest and it was not immoral. The Zionists had no more right to the land than the Palestinians and frankly I think they had a lot less right to it. People keep trying to put israel on some sort of moral high ground that they simply cannot claim. I don’t mean that Hamas or even Abbas can claim the moral high ground but in an effort to try to paint one side as the good guys (and the other side as the bad guys) they whitewash all the shit that Israel did. Israel didn’t have any right to expect (and didn’t expect) that the arab nations would just go along with a Jewish state in the middle east. Israel cannot simply point to the treatment of jews by other arab nations to justify the confiscation of arab property from palestinians in israel. Israel cannot on the one hand point to things like the Balfour declaration and UN resolution 181 to justify their existence while at the same time ignoring the parts of those documents that give full and equal right to all inhabitants (including the Palestinians). If they are going to go the route of having Palestinian occupied territories in the WB and Gaza, they can’t then proceed to create settlements and chip away at those territories. And of course hamas should stop trying to kill israeli civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/327 "2014-07-16T04:32:57Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > They only attacked because the Zionists declared its independence as a Jewish state. It was not an unprovoked attack and it was not a war of conquest and it was not immoral. The Zionists had no more right to the land than the Palestinians and frankly I think they had a lot less right to it. Err… the occupied territories came under Israeli control following the 67 War not the 48 War of Independence. Had Jordan not invaded Israel when Israel begged them to stay out of the war, they’d never have taken the West Bank and had Nasser not make it clear that he was going to invade the Israelis never would have taken the Gaza Strip. For that matter the Israelis were happy to negotiate afterwards and openly offered to do so. Unfortunately the Arab nations and the PLO refused and issued their famous three nos. “No recognition, no negotiation, and no peace.” Abba Eban quipped “for the first time in history the victors sued for peace while the losers demanded unconditional surrender.” ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/328 "2014-07-16T04:44:23Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So what’s your point? That you want them to root out Hamas with sticks and rocks? Errr… His point was that you rather foolishly suggested that Israel do something that they’d already done(arming the PA). His point was also that this was fairly common knowledge for anyone who’d been paying attention to the conflict. It’s also worth noting you keep demanding some sort of Marshall plan for the PA and have ignored they’ve gotten huge amounts of foreign aid, part of the reason Hamas insists that Abbas, despite being a vocal denier of the Holocaust, is a puppet of the Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/329 "2014-07-16T05:11:08Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The USA didn’t exist until the U.S. Constitution was ratified on Jun 21, 1788. Incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/330 "2014-07-16T05:12:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Its not the Palestinians that want these things. Its Hamas. Palestine IS Hamas. That’s how Democracy works, and Hamas was elected. > [@](#): > > Do you think the withdrawal from Gaza caused the Palestinian attacks or did one thing just happen to occur after the other? The withdrawal from Gaza led directly to the Gaza elections, which led directly to Hamas gaining power. Palestine is not interested in a two state solution. This much ought to be clear by now, considering they have their goddamn state and still won’t stop attacking. The reason it’s a political necessity (as Brainglutton so eloquently put it earlier in the thread) for Hamas to use hyper-amped up “death to Israel” rhetoric is because Palestinians will not tolerate anything less from their leaders. Israel and Palestine cannot exist peacefully together until this mindset changes. Israel has proven it is willing to negotiate a two-state solution. Palestine continues to prove that it is not willing to do the same. Average Palestinians chose Hamas, because average Palestinians want a single state solution, where Israel does not exist and Palestine does. This is not an extremist view. It is the view of a typical Palestinian. Yet Israel continues to treat Hamas like it’s some illegitimate terrorist group, naively thinking that all they have to do is cut off the snake’s head to defeat it so reasonable Palestinian leaders can emerge. That’s just not realistic. Palestine is Hamas. There is no difference. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/331 "2014-07-16T05:55:43Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Palestine IS Hamas. That’s how Democracy works, and Hamas was elected. I think you’re really overstating this. Even putting aside the difference between Gaza and Palestine, all the fact that they won an election shows is that a _majority_ of the people in Gaza supported Hamas over the alternatives at the time of the election. > [@](#): > > Palestine is not interested in a two state solution. What do current polls say about Palestinian support for a two-state solution? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/332 "2014-07-16T07:11:43Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Palestine IS Hamas. That’s how Democracy works, and Hamas was elected. > > The withdrawal from Gaza led directly to the Gaza elections, which led directly to Hamas gaining power. > > Palestine is not interested in a two state solution. This much ought to be clear by now, considering they have their goddamn state and still won’t stop attacking. The reason it’s a political necessity (as Brainglutton so eloquently put it earlier in the thread) for Hamas to use hyper-amped up “death to Israel” rhetoric is because Palestinians will not tolerate anything less from their leaders. Israel and Palestine cannot exist peacefully together until this mindset changes. Israel has proven it is willing to negotiate a two-state solution. Palestine continues to prove that it is not willing to do the same. > > Average Palestinians chose Hamas, because average Palestinians want a single state solution, where Israel does not exist and Palestine does. This is not an extremist view. It is the view of a typical Palestinian. Yet Israel continues to treat Hamas like it’s some illegitimate terrorist group, naively thinking that all they have to do is cut off the snake’s head to defeat it so reasonable Palestinian leaders can emerge. That’s just not realistic. Palestine is Hamas. There is no difference. Right. Like the USA IS George W Bush. No wait, like the USA IS Barack Obama. Fwiw, in 2006 Hamas won 74 of 132 seats. Or 43%. I feel sure you knew that was in the legislative elections not municipal. Yeah. Everything else in this post comes stright out the back of your head via the US nightly ‘news’. You don’t even make distinctions between different wings of the political party, let alone between the political and military brigades. Worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/333 "2014-07-16T07:17:17Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > What is bizarre about that? They didn’t think about feeding people and improving their economy, they tore stuff up. Your annecdote about greenhouses is so wrong headed a 16-year old in a debating society would be embarrassed to voice it. And you seemingly don’t get even a hint of that. I guess you’ve watched and read US media for quite some time. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/334 "2014-07-16T07:47:05Z")
> [@Johnny\_Cashless](#): > > Everything else in this post comes stright out the back of your head via the US nightly ‘news’. You don’t even make distinctions between different wings of the political party, let alone between the political and military brigades. I’m reminded of the claptrap I used to hear from idiot Irish American nationalists about how Sinn Fein shouldn’t be seen as terrorists or blamed for the PIRA and how the British criticism of Gerry Adams showed how stupid the British were. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/335 "2014-07-16T08:03:52Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Thanks everyone for the replies to the thread. Trying to refocus a bit on the OP (I’m really _not_ interested in debating Israel’s right to exist, that ship has sailed decades ago)… > > What do you all think would be the best way for Israel to try to achieve the goal of peace at this point? > > I would have said that a start would be to announce a suspension of airstrikes and ask that Hamas also suspend their attacks, and for the two sides to come to the negotiating table. Which it seems is basically what they did, only to be rejected by Hamas. > > I don’t ask what Hamas should do, because I think it’s obvious: They should accept the cease fire. Invade Gaza with an overwhelming show of force. Pacify the population through harsh retaliation. Declare the Hama’s government null and void, arrest its leaders, and give them a fair trial followed by a speedy execution. Establish an occupation government to remain in effect until either such time as the Fatah government is capable of exercising responsible government over Gaza and policing its own citizens, or a agreement can be made to allow Egypt to annex the Strip. Do all of this openly, transparently, and with full respect for the laws of war. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/336 "2014-07-16T08:19:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Invade Gaza with an overwhelming show of force. Pacify the population through harsh retaliation. Declare the Hama’s government null and void, arrest its leaders, and give them a fair trial followed by a speedy execution. Establish an occupation government to remain in effect until either such time as the Fatah government is capable of exercising responsible government over Gaza and policing its own citizens, or a agreement can be made to allow Egypt to annex the Strip. > > Do all of this openly, transparently, and with full respect for the laws of war. Leaving aside the fact that the real world doesn’t work like that and Israel isn’t a Bond villain, Israel does not have the death penalty except for genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Danja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@Danja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danja)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/337 "2014-07-16T08:35:47Z")
> [@Johnny\_Cashless](#): > > Right. Like the USA IS George W Bush. No wait, like the USA IS Barack Obama. > > Fwiw, in 2006 Hamas won 74 of 132 seats. **Or 43%**. I feel sure you knew that was in the legislative elections not municipal. Yeah. > > Everything else in this post comes stright out the back of your head via the US nightly ‘news’. You don’t even make distinctions between different wings of the political party, let alone between the political and military brigades. > > Worthless. I don’t know about Mosier’s post being worthless, but your math on the other hand… There is no way to make peace in the Middle East within the next few generations. Israel should continue trying to disarm Hamas as nonviolently as possible and with minimal collateral damage. They should also deploy more Iron Dome installations to protect themselves as well as possible from the inevitable rocket attacks. On their own end, they should find the political will to relinquish their border settlements and, if possible, end the religious draft exemption for the most hawkish segment of their society. It will still take generations to find peace but under the status quo the conflict will go on forever. > [@Smapti](#): > > Invade Gaza with an overwhelming show of force. Pacify the population through harsh retaliation. Declare the Hama’s government null and void, arrest its leaders, and give them a fair trial followed by a speedy execution. Establish an occupation government to remain in effect until either such time as the Fatah government is capable of exercising responsible government over Gaza and policing its own citizens, or a agreement can be made to allow Egypt to annex the Strip. > > Do all of this openly, transparently, and with full respect for the laws of war. That’ll go far to discourage radicalism… ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/338 "2014-07-16T08:46:17Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I believe that Jews were about a third of the population in israel when Israel was created as a jewish state. This is ignorant bullshit. When the UN urged the partition of Palestine the land set aside for the creation of a Jewish state was predominantly Jewish. Legitimate criticisms can be made as to how the borders were drawn but whoever told you that was either a fool or they trying to make a fool out of you. > [@](#): > > So when was Lebanon formed and when was Israel formed. Were they formed under the same or similar circumstances? Errr… yes. The borders of Lebanon were drawn up by the French so that it would be majority Christian. This pissed off the Syrians who felt there was always far more of connection between Beirut and Damascus than between Damascus and Syria and as a result every Syrian government has refused to recognize the existence of an independent Lebanese state and to this day maps in Syria over the area which is Lebanon are labeled “Southern Syria”. They also set up laws whereby the President would always have to be a Christian, the parliament would have to be predominantly Christian and they refused to have any other censuses after the formation of Lebanon to preserve the fiction that Lebanon was a predominantly Christian country. > [@](#): > > I’m not a middle east expert but I don’t really see any similarity other than the fact they they were all carved from the carcass of the Ottoman Empire. Did Iraq declare a mulsim state in a majority buddhist land? Were people in the area violently opposed to the independence of Iraq? Huh? Obviously the Shia were furious at the fact that despite being predominantly Shia the British put the Hashemites in charge and ensured that the rulers of Iraq would always be Sunnis not Shia. I’d think this was something that most people who’d followed the news regarding the Iraq War would be familiar with. > [@](#): > > Which European country started a war without criticism since WWII? Other than UN sanctioned wars, who has started shit since WWI without criticism? Israel gets singled out because there is an ongoing and perpetual injustice. Can you point to any other refugee crisis that would qualify for medicare in the US? Really? Turkey is, unlike Israel a member of NATO and a European nation(remember it was long called “the sick man of Europe”) yet it invaded Cyprus in the 70s, ethnically cleansed the Greek Cypriots from Northern Cyprus and has occupied it ever since while setting up a puppet government recognized by no other government other than Turkey. How much criticism has Turkey endured on this board due to that? How many threads have been devoted to that situation in contrast to the amount of threads on the Israel/Palestine conflict. Perhaps you can link us to some of your own posts where you’ve raged against it. If you can’t perhaps you could explain why you’ve ignored it? Also, Bulgaria is a European nation and ethnically cleansed it’s Turkish population in the 1980s. How much criticism has it received for doing so, particularly in comparison to the criticism that Israel has received. Again, perhaps you can link to some of your own posts criticizing this or explaining your refusal to do so. Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/339 "2014-07-16T08:52:51Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The problem with that is what to do with the people who live there. The Palestinians have seen fit to expel the Jews from the West Bank, \*\*but Israel lives up to higher standards of obedience to international law. \*\*For them to incorporate the West Bank and to eject the Palestinian populace living there would be a criminal act of “ethnic cleansing” and would not be well-received by the world’s industrialized democracies. (bolding mine) Israel has been placing settlers on occupied land since the 1970s and engages openly in collective punishment so I’d be a little careful in declaring just how obedient they are to international law. Admittedly most of their neighbors are hardly in a position to point fingers. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/340 "2014-07-16T09:12:32Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Leaving aside the fact that the real world doesn’t work like that and Israel isn’t a Bond villain, Israel does not have the death penalty except for genocide. Hamas’ leaders are certainly guilty of attempted genocide, aren’t they? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=18)