# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/341 "2014-07-16T09:30:53Z")
> [@Danja](#): > > I don’t know about Mosier’s post being worthless, but your math on the other hand… You’re in ‘Great Debates’ and you haven’t grasped the concept that total votes and won constituencies don’t align? I hope you’re sitting down for this news … Gore got more votes than Bush. This whole thread is like a Fox News ME special. ---
**Author:** ![Danja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@Danja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danja)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/342 "2014-07-16T10:25:23Z")
> [@Johnny\_Cashless](#): > > You’re in ‘Great Debates’ and you haven’t grasped the concept that total votes and won constituencies don’t align? > > I hope you’re sitting down for this news … Gore got more votes than Bush. > > This whole thread is like a Fox News ME special. You didn’t specify what the percentage referred to so I naturally assumed you were discussing the previous number and that you had flipped your fraction. In any case, your number seems [slightly](http://web.archive.org/web/20081029054121/http://www.elections.ps/pdf/Final_Results_PLC_Summary_Lists_Seats_2_En.pdf) [off](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006#Results) and I confess to not knowing the exact percentages off the top of my head (but I would have verified had it been clear that’s what you were talking about). In any case, do you have any suggestions for us O’Reillys? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/343 "2014-07-16T11:52:25Z")
> [@Johnny\_Cashless](#): > > Right. Like the USA IS George W Bush. No wait, like the USA IS Barack Obama. > > Fwiw, in 2006 Hamas won 74 of 132 seats. Or 43%. I feel sure you knew that was in the legislative elections not municipal. Yeah. > > Everything else in this post comes stright out the back of your head via the US nightly ‘news’. You don’t even make distinctions between different wings of the political party, let alone between the political and military brigades. > > Worthless. George Bush and Barack Obama are individuals. Hamas is a political group. It holds the majority vote according to your post (74/132=56%). Right now it IS Palestine. The difference here is that it’s also a terrorist group. ---
**Author:** ![bardos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bardos/32/1069_2.png) [@bardos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bardos)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/344 "2014-07-16T12:06:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > George Bush and Barack Obama are individuals. Hamas is a political group. It holds the majority vote according to your post (74/132=56%). Right now it IS Palestine. The difference here is that it’s also a terrorist group. What constitutes a terrorist group? What is the definition? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/345 "2014-07-16T12:29:08Z")
> [@bardos](#): > > What constitutes a terrorist group? What is the definition? people who terrorize. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/346 "2014-07-16T12:43:13Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why would they need terrorism once they are in the majority of a single Israeli state? Are you afraid of payback? If they would use their majority in a single Israeli state to advance the same goals as their acts of terrorism, that is a damn good reason not to give them a majority in a single Israeli state. “Majority rules” is not _casus belli_ for genocide. And “payback” is a deceptive way of putting it. Hamas is the enemy of Israeli and Palestinian alike. They take deliberate action to maximise casualties on both sides. Trying to pretend their victims were asking for it is obscene. > [@](#): > > There are parts of the Wb where Palestinians enjoy almost unrestricted autonomy. no embargo, no IDF presence, nothing. And yet they do not fire rockets into Israel. Are they just slackers? > … > Of course. So why not start with the ones that aren’t trying to murder civilians? Because you explicitly said “All those within Palestine”. If you only mean the West Bank, you should have said so. ---
**Author:** ![bardos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bardos/32/1069_2.png) [@bardos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bardos)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/347 "2014-07-16T12:49:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > people who terrorize. MY sixth grade teacher was a terrorist? Seriously though, a poor definition using the same word to define itself. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/348 "2014-07-16T13:05:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So you think there was cause and effect there? Palestinians are given full control over gaza, settlers are expelled and then as a consequence of that disengagement and expulsion of settlers, Hamas takes over Gaza and wages war on israel? No, it isn’t cause and effect that Hamas wants to destroy Israel. They want that no matter what, which is 90% of the problem. > [@](#): > > how are a bunch of guys mostly armed with some small arms and the occasional RPF 7 who vow to destroy Israel and actual threat to Israel’s ability to exist? We already covered this. Israel is under no moral obligation to wait until their very existence is threatened before taking action to defend themselves. The idea that Israel shouldn’t do anything until it’s too late is both silly and morally repugnant. Firing rockets at another country is an act of war, and justifies a war-like response by that country (all other things being equal). If the PA wants to be an independent state, then they will have to deal with all the consequences of being an independent state, including having those you attack defend themselves against you. Even if you are a craven fuckturd who hides his rockets behind the bodies of your own children. > [@](#): > > I asked why Israel has more of a right to exist than Palestine. You pointed to a document that created two countries, Israel and Palestine. You see how why your cite doesn’t really support the notion that Israel has more of a right to exist than Palestine? **Grunman** dealt with this. > [@](#): > > If you are saying that Israel has the right to exist while Palestine doesn’t because of the right of conquest or something then Israel’s right to exist is subject to anyone else’s right of conquest. Right? If Israel unjustly attacks another country, then yes, the other country is entitled to do what it likes with whatever territory it conquers. > [@](#): > > I can make a moral argument for the formation of the state of Israel in Germany/Austria, but if there is a moral argument for Israel’s right to exist in the middle east, then I have not heard it. I think you mean that you haven’t read it. That, I can’t help. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/349 "2014-07-16T13:07:53Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Thanks everyone for the replies to the thread. Trying to refocus a bit on the OP (I’m really _not_ interested in debating Israel’s right to exist, that ship has sailed decades ago)… > > What do you all think would be the best way for Israel to try to achieve the goal of peace at this point? > > I would have said that a start would be to announce a suspension of airstrikes and ask that Hamas also suspend their attacks, and for the two sides to come to the negotiating table. Which it seems is basically what they did, only to be rejected by Hamas. > > I don’t ask what Hamas should do, because I think it’s obvious: They should accept the cease fire. You have put your finger on the problem, and it tends to be a very basic one in this situation - namely, Israel has tried the sensible move, and it did not work. What now? My impression is that Israel will simply step up the counter-battery fire, to put more pressure on Hamas. There are reports that Hamas is sending out mixed messages - the military and political “wings” are sending different signals. The hope is more pressure will, eventually, compel a cease-fire. The concern is: what if it doesn’t? What then? There is little appetite in mainstream Israeli circles for a ground invasion, that will inevitably result in serious casualties among Palestinian civilians and Israeli soldiers. Also, it has been tried before. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/350 "2014-07-16T13:16:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The difference here is that it’s also a terrorist group. The difference is name calling. This is how you ‘Great Debates’? Fwiw, you could very easily be a terrorist; it’s well known terrorits try to distract by pointing at other. Maybe you are. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/351 "2014-07-16T13:18:44Z")
> [@bardos](#): > > MY sixth grade teacher was a terrorist? > > Seriously though, a poor definition using the same word to define itself. Using the base of a word from which it comes is the hallmark of a proper definition. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/352 "2014-07-16T13:59:10Z")
> [@bardos](#): > > MY sixth grade teacher was a terrorist? > > Seriously though, a poor definition using the same word to define itself. Okay, I’ll bite. In ordinary combat, a combatant attempts to achieve its military goals while minimizing, insofar as is possible while achieving those goals, casualties to civilians. In short, the intent is to achieve some tangible military success, and civilian casualties are an unfortunate by-product of achieving that success. A terrorist is someone who is essentially uncaring of achieving any military success. Their goal is to inflict as many civilian casualties as possible, in order to break the morale of the civilian population. In fact, a terrorist usually avoid the ordinary military. This is an inversion of “ordinary” combat. ---
**Author:** ![bardos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bardos/32/1069_2.png) [@bardos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bardos)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/353 "2014-07-16T14:01:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Using the base of a word from which it comes is the hallmark of a proper definition. My friend, you are using the word whose definition is sought in the definition itself, thereby abdicating the responsibility of providing meaning or justification. It’s called “circular definition” by grammarians… and others. Sorry, I was hoping to enter into an intelligent discussion. ---
**Author:** ![bardos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bardos/32/1069_2.png) [@bardos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bardos)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/354 "2014-07-16T14:04:03Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Okay, I’ll bite. > > In ordinary combat, a combatant attempts to achieve its military goals while minimizing, insofar as is possible while achieving those goals, casualties to civilians. In short, the intent is to achieve some tangible military success, and civilian casualties are an unfortunate by-product of achieving that success. > > A terrorist is someone who is essentially uncaring of achieving any military success. Their goal is to inflict as many civilian casualties as possible, in order to break the morale of the civilian population. In fact, a terrorist usually avoid the ordinary military. This is an inversion of “ordinary” combat. You might re-think your definition. Was the allied bombing of Dresden, the carpet bombing in Vietnam examples of terrorism? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/355 "2014-07-16T14:20:36Z")
Fine, I’ll bite. A terrorist is an individual or sub-state actor that engages in the deliberate and intentional infliction of physical and/or mental harm on civilian populations to affect a change in political policy. Unabomber, blew random people up to make a political point - terrorist Timmy, 18 year old men’s right jackass kills girl friend - not a terrorist Hamas - sub state actor inflicts harm that specifically targets civilians - terrorist Iran - nation state that sponsors sub state actors, not a terrorist Allies - alliance of nation states engaged in total war - not a terrorist ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/356 "2014-07-16T15:07:13Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > A terrorist is an individual or sub-state actor that engages in the deliberate and intentional infliction of physical and/or mental harm on civilian populations to affect a change in political policy. And the IDF? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/357 "2014-07-16T15:11:28Z")
Is this an intentionally stupid question? ---
**Author:** ![bardos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bardos/32/1069_2.png) [@bardos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bardos)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/358 "2014-07-16T15:16:22Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Fine, I’ll bite. > > A terrorist is an individual or sub-state actor that engages in the deliberate and intentional infliction of physical and/or mental harm on civilian populations to affect a change in political policy. > > Unabomber, blew random people up to make a political point - terrorist > Timmy, 18 year old men’s right jackass kills girl friend - not a terrorist > Hamas - sub state actor inflicts harm that specifically targets civilians - terrorist > Iran - nation state that sponsors sub state actors, not a terrorist > Allies - alliance of nation states engaged in total war - not a terrorist There’s a lot to differ with here, but I think the important point is that although Gaza is not a country recognised by the U.N., it does have a legitimate government elected by democratic vote. I do agree though that no matter what they may say, Hamas’ use of missiles is totally civilian casualty oriented. What else can firing missiles on cities be called? However, on the one hand, this has been done by many so called “official” countries in the past, without being labelled as anything other than conducting war. And on the other hand, Hamas does not have any other viable threat as a weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/359 "2014-07-16T15:16:34Z")
No, it’s an unintentionallly stupid question. I’m surprised, given your comprehensive labelling, that you omitted that “sub-state actor”. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/360 "2014-07-16T15:18:31Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Palestine IS Hamas. That’s how Democracy works, and Hamas was elected. So what is Abbas’ role in all this? Is he just an interested observer? The Palestinians don’t all seem to be on the same page [Fatah–Hamas conflict - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah-Hamas_conflict) And hamas doesn’t seem to be continuing the Democratic tradition of free and fair elections. IIRC, the election victories of Hamas were portrayed by the media as a rebuke of the corruption of Fatah more than it was an adoption of the principles of Hamas. > [@](#): > > The withdrawal from Gaza led directly to the Gaza elections, which led directly to Hamas gaining power. Gaza never got a chance to vote them back out. I don’t know if they would or not but if they would then why would Hamas suspend elections? > [@](#): > > Palestine is not interested in a two state solution. Despite Abbas saying the opposite on several occassions. Is he just saying that he wants a two state solution, and I suppose he is also open to a one state solution; and he is certainly open to not driving Israel into the sea. > [@](#): > > This much ought to be clear by now, considering they have their goddamn state and still won’t stop attacking. Once again, who is doing the attacking? And what state? There are autnomous zones in the wb and noone is firing rockets out of those places. > [@](#): > > The reason it’s a political necessity (as Brainglutton so eloquently put it earlier in the thread) for Hamas to use hyper-amped up “death to Israel” rhetoric is because Palestinians will not tolerate anything less from their leaders. Cite that this is the case in the west bank. > [@](#): > > Israel and Palestine cannot exist peacefully together until this mindset changes. Israel has proven it is willing to negotiate a two-state solution. Palestine continues to prove that it is not willing to do the same. And what if anything is israel doing to change that mindset (besides aggravate it by building settlements)? I think I have already described why that mindset mihgt have developed. It wasn’t there before zionism and while you may not like it, the reaction is understandable if not entirely rational. > [@](#): > > Average Palestinians chose Hamas, because average Palestinians want a single state solution, where Israel does not exist and Palestine does. This is not an extremist view. It is the view of a typical Palestinian. Cite. IIRC it was more about Fatah corruption that Hamas fanaticism. in fact IIRC Hamas toned down their rhetoric for the election. once again its just wikipedia but: > **[Hamas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#2006_presidential_and_legislative_elections)** > > The Islamic Resistance Movement, abbreviated Hamas\[c\] (an Arabic acronym from Arabic: حركة المقاومة الإسلامية, romanized: Ḥarakat al-Muqāwamah al-ʾIslāmiyyah),\[d\] is a Palestinian nationalist Sunni Islamist political organisation with a military wing called the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades. It has governed the Israeli-occupied Gaza Strip since 2007. > The Hamas movement was founded by Palestinian Islamic scholar Ahmed Yassin in 1987, after the outbreak of the First Intifada against the Israel... They omitted their usual “death to israel” warcry and a lot of people seemed to think this was a repudiation of Fatah corruption rather than an embrace of Hamas principles. > [@](#): > > Yet Israel continues to treat Hamas like it’s some illegitimate terrorist group, naively thinking that all they have to do is cut off the snake’s head to defeat it so reasonable Palestinian leaders can emerge. That’s just not realistic. Palestine is Hamas. There is no difference. I think you are wrong. I don’t see how you can say that when Fatah has led Palestinians for decades while Hamas won ONE election. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=19)