# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/381 "2014-07-16T17:35:06Z")
They aren’t lumping them all together. Israel only shoots back at those who are firing rockets at them. As pointed out, Hamas attacks Israel whether she builds settlements or not. Again - stopping the settlements did not induce the Palestinians to negotiate in good faith. There is therefore no reason to believe that stopping the settlements is going to cause Hamas to stop shooting rockets. Israel did what you recommend - they showed the Palestinians the benefits of peace by putting a freeze on settlements. In return, the Palestinians showed Israeli the benefits of being nicer to them - rockets, terror, kidnapping, and murder. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/382 "2014-07-16T17:35:43Z")
> [@bardos](#): > > I do agree though that no matter what they may say, Hamas’ use of missiles is totally civilian casualty oriented. What else can firing missiles on cities be called? > > However, on the one hand, this has been done by many so called “official” countries in the past, without being labelled as anything other than conducting war. So I guess there are two possible classifications of organizations that attack civilian populations: (1) terrorists (2) governments engaged in total war Does it matter if Hamas is a terrorist organization or a government that is engaged in total war with Israel? Should Israel’s response be different depending which of those categories they fall into? Or is this just a question of semantics? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/383 "2014-07-16T17:45:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > His role in this case is to put an end to terrorist attacks on Israel. If he can’t do that, then his role is irrelevant. I could just as easily say that Netanyahu’s role is to address alll the palestinian grievances. If he can’t do that, then his role is irrelevant. > [@](#): > > Hamas is doing the attacking, from Gaza. So its not all Palestinains like some of the folks on your side seem to think. > [@](#): > > That’s good. Now what we need to focus on is ending the firing of rockets from Gaza. There was a period of time before rockets were fired and there will be a period of time after they are fired and it seems that the only time Israel takes anything Palestinians have to say seriously is when rockets are being fired at them. Perhaps Israel could try stopping the abuses against the more peaceful residents of the West Bank during this period of time. > [@](#): > > They agreed to a truce, but Hamas refused. They gave notice to civilians in Gaza that they were going to bomb their areas to take out the rockets, but Hamas would rather the civilains stay where they are and get blown up because that is better PR. Israel is trying to minimize casualties among the Palestinians and Hamas is trying to maximize them. Israel agreed to a cease-fire brokered by Egypt but Hamas declined to stop firing rockets at Israelis. And I have not criticized how they are conducting their retaliation. But that’s not winning hearts and minds in gaza. That just making it more palatable to outside observers like me. Imagine you live in Gaza and Israel tells you to vacate because they are going to destroy your neighborhood. Do you think “well they are going to destroy my home but at least they told me so me and my family don’t die. gee those israelis are swell fellas.” or are you going to think “they blew up my fucking house!!!” > [@](#): > > Guess what? It turns out that Hamas was lying, and once they got control they started firing rockets at Israel. So it was a mistake to believe that Hamas was really changing. So, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. We can’t believe Hamas if they ever say or imply that they don’t want to kill the Israelis and grab their land. OK but the point was not Hamas but those who voted for them. remember. Some of your fellowtravellers were making the argument that because Palestinians voted for hamas they were indistinguishable from hamas. Palestine=Hamas, remember that? My point was that Palestinians weren’t voting for hamas so mucha s they were voting against Fatah and to make themselves more palatable to the Palestinians, they lied to them (imagine that, politicians lying to win elections). Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/384 "2014-07-16T17:47:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So can we invade Mexico and take care of some of the drug cartel violence that is spilling over into our borders? I must have missed the lack of Mexican military actions against criminals inside Mexico. Well, “live and don’t learn, that’s us” I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/385 "2014-07-16T17:49:51Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > If this is going to be a constant on-off rocket attacks and no one wants to recognize Hamas as the legit government, I think a ground invasion and permanent (or at least long term) occupation is the only solution. Set up the strip as an autonomous region - with no right to a military- and try to buy the Palestinians with massive infrastructure and business investments. Try to build stronger mutually beneficial trade. Maybe then in 30 years there won’t be any support for violent anti-Israeli sentiment. I think this could work. I guess I would add that massive infrastructure and business investments would probably be welcome in the West bank as well. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/386 "2014-07-16T17:52:32Z")
> [@bardos](#): > > You might re-think your definition. Was the allied bombing of Dresden, the carpet bombing in Vietnam examples of terrorism? Yes to the fire-bombing - state-sponored terrorism, in my opinion. Don’t know enough about the reasons behind carpet-bombing to comment. There has traditionally been a distinction between state-level entities and non-state entities concerning the use of terror tactics, with the former being more acceptable in the context of seiges and the like and the latter being unacceplable. But then, any non-state combatants have been traditionally considered unacceptable. To my mind, the state/non-state distinction isn’t very important for this issue. Fire-bombing cities for the pupose of terrorizing or “breaking the will” of the civilian population is clearly terrorism in my view, even though the Allies - obviously the ‘good guys’ in WW2 - did it. The Allies did a lot of questionable things, and the fact that they were the ‘good guys’ should not blind us to that. Here in this conflict, Hamas is very obviouly using terror tactics and Israel is not. That is true regardless of whom you consider the “good guys” - one, both or neither. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/387 "2014-07-16T17:55:40Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So everything would be Ok as long as they only targetted the IDF? Then they would be freedom fighters? They would be ordinary irregular combatants and not “terrorists”. “Freedom fighter” is a value judgment on their cause, one I for one would be unwilling toi make - I don’t think Hamas is, in fact, fighting for “freedom”. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/388 "2014-07-16T17:56:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So can we invade Mexico and take care of some of the drug cartel violence that is spilling over into our borders? You think Mexico is being run by drug cartels? If you don’t, your comparison is utterly asinine. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/389 "2014-07-16T17:59:06Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > They did that because they were poor and conditions are not going to change overnight. And they may not want Israel as it currently stands to survive, but if they were part of it, I believe they would So they aren’t mindless animals??? 😕 You sure because thats not the impression I get from some of these posts. > [@](#): > > Also, will Israel abandon the destruction of the homes of terrorists too? That’s a pretty appalling practice as well. These guys believe in punishing an entire people for the actions of a few, why in the world would they stop punishing the immediate families of terrorists? > [@](#): > > And you shouldn’t gloss over the fact that only some of them want to murder Israeli’s because they are shut out from the political process and cannot change their situation. Give them the power to do that through non-violent means and a good majority will elect to do that You have any evidence for that? Because I feel that this is true as well but its just a feeling, a belief, a hope based on the notion that these people have the same hopes and dreams for their children that i would have for mine. But maybe they are so embittered that the majority of Palestinians are like the mother who straps a bomb to her son’s chest and sends him into a crowded market. Do youn have any proof that most Palestinians are more like me than that mother? > [@](#): > > We don’t have to convince them of that, simply that a change in the status quo is better than this type of non-stop violence Well, I think THIS is why we keep hearing about existential threats, etc. They have to believe that too much leniancy could result in catastrophic consequences, otherwise why wouldn’t they entertain these ideas? > [@](#): > > I read a while ago somewhere that Israel insists on being recognized specifically as a “Jewish” state, which to me is kind of a stupid and unreasonable demand, if true. As long as it survives and the people are alive and well, Israel should not demand unreasonable concessions for recognition. Its enough that Hamas or whoever recognize it as Israel and its a state, that’s all they should hope for I think that this is a sticking point that won’t go away and why Israel won’t accept a one state solution (at least until they trust the palestinians a lot more). Its not just a desire to maintain a Jewish majority (which many do), its a desire to avoid a Palestinian majority. A majority that might make Jews second class citizens in their own country (gee, I wonder if Palestinians feel that way right now). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/390 "2014-07-16T17:59:19Z")
I’m always amazed that during all these idiotic arguments over the definition of “terrorism” and “terrorist” none of the anti-Israel crowd ever bring up the people and groups who founded Likud. It’s certainly the first thing Palestinian intellectuals usually bring up. Granted they actually care about the Palestinians and their cause. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/391 "2014-07-16T18:00:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because even when they stop building, in return they get nothing back from the Palestinians except “OK now give me the rest of what I demand, and we can negotiate from there.” > > Regards, > Shodan So even when you stop doing somethign you shouldn’t be doing in the first place, you don’t get rewarded? Life is so unfair.:mad: ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/392 "2014-07-16T18:09:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, that wouldn’t be a good idea. Because, as mentioned, Hamas issues threats against Israel all the time, and shows by their actions that they want very much to destroy Israel and grab her land. So it isn’t bullshit at all. You are trying the dodge of saying that Israel shouldn’t be able to defend herself against anything less than a nuclear strike. That’s dumb, and it won’t work. /sigh. once again. Where do I ever say that Israel cannot defend itself against rocket attacks. You are imagining that. Its not part of my argumenht that you can only retaliate against existsential threats. You are tilting at straw men. This existential threat business is distorting how people look at peace. Israel acts like it has Damocle’s sword haning over their heads and refuse to negotiate with anyone (even the relatively peaceful WB palestinians) until that sword has been removed. But frankly if it was REALLY an existenial threat, Israel would be more inclined to negotiate, not less so. Israel’s reluctance to negotiate is in part because there is not existential threat but they can only defend their reluctance to negotiate by pretnding the threat is grave indeed. > [@](#): > > Yes it has. Read **Grunman** ’s post. > > Regards, > Shodan I thought I read all of them and I don’t see a moral argument anywhere in there. Can you point it out to me? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/393 "2014-07-16T18:14:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As long as the target is a military site, it is not terrorism. Gilad Shalit attackers/abductors in Israel were NOT terrorists. Iraq’s militants who attacked US troops were not terrorists. Iraq’s militants who suicide-bomb mosques are terrorists. Afghani Taliban, when they attack US troops, are not terrorists (when they blow up civilians, they are terrorists). 9/11 hijackers who attacked the Pentagon were terrorists, not because of the attack on the Pentagon, but because of the hijacking and murdering a planeload of civilians in the process. > > See the difference? No I see the difference, I just wanted confirmation. So then weren’t Irgun and Lehi terrorist organizations? Didn’t some of the leaders of these organizations end up as Israel’s political leaders? And BTW, aren’t some civilian casualties permissible in the pursuit of valid military targets (see King David Hotel). So why aren’t the passengers of the flight that was sent to the pentagon a permissible civilian casualty in the pursuit of a military target? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/394 "2014-07-16T18:18:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > They aren’t lumping them all together. Israel only shoots back at those who are firing rockets at them. As pointed out, Hamas attacks Israel whether she builds settlements or not. If building settlements was the only grievance that they had, then you wold make more sense. And I was accusing some of the posters of lumping themtogether, not Israel. I think their response to the rocket attacks is permissible and shold be tolerated by the international community. I don’t think they are treating the WB any shittier than usual. > [@](#): > > Again - stopping the settlements did not induce the Palestinians to negotiate in good faith. There is therefore no reason to believe that stopping the settlements is going to cause Hamas to stop shooting rockets. By itself, no, of course not. > [@](#): > > Israel did what you recommend - they showed the Palestinians the benefits of peace by putting a freeze on settlements. In return, the Palestinians showed Israeli the benefits of being nicer to them - rockets, terror, kidnapping, and murder. All palestinians or just Hamas? See even you’re doing it. You are attributing hamas actions to all Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/395 "2014-07-16T18:21:53Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > I must have missed the lack of Mexican military actions against criminals inside Mexico. Well, “live and don’t learn, that’s us” I guess. I was responding to a post that said “Given that there is no regional governing force that can do that, Israel gets to contain/render ineffective Hamas’ attacks.” See the word “can” That indicates that Abbas is unABLE to stop hamas, not that he is unWILLING to stop hamas. And similarly Mexico is unABLE to stop the mexican drug cartels. I frankly have no problem with israeli retaliation but I do have a problem with how they treat Palestinians when rockets aren’t flying in the air. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/396 "2014-07-16T18:25:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No I see the difference, I just wanted confirmation. So then weren’t Irgun and Lehi terrorist organizations? AFAIR, they attacked military sites and military personnel. Yes, killing Bernadotte was a terrorist act. No, bombing King David hotel wasn’t, it was the British military HQ at the time. > [@](#): > > And BTW, aren’t some civilian casualties permissible in the pursuit of valid military targets (see King David Hotel). So why aren’t the passengers of the flight that was sent to the pentagon a permissible civilian casualty in the pursuit of a military target? Deliberate vs. incidental. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/397 "2014-07-16T18:48:50Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I could just as easily say that Netanyahu’s role is to address alll the palestinian grievances. If he can’t do that, then his role is irrelevant. Yes, you could say that. It would be stupid, but you could say it. Because “we don’t want Hamas to fire rockets at us” is a legitimate grievance, and a leader who cannot or will not address it is irrelevant. “We don’t want Israel to exist” is not a legitimate grievance, and a leader who ignores it is still relevant. > [@](#): > > So its not all Palestinains like some of the folks on your side seem to think. No one on my side in this thread has said this. > [@](#): > > There was a period of time before rockets were fired and there will be a period of time after they are fired and it seems that the only time Israel takes anything Palestinians have to say seriously is when rockets are being fired at them. Perhaps Israel could try stopping the abuses against the more peaceful residents of the West Bank during this period of time. Again, this is not close to true. As mentioned, Israel did [stop the settlements](http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/09/26/israel.settlement.moratorium/)for ten months, as well as negotiated a deal that would have given the Palestinians 95% of what they wanted. [The PA in the form of Arafat refused](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit). They didn’t make a counter-offer, they didn’t do anything. They just said No and kicked off another intifada. So they did try that. It did not have the results you think it would have. > [@](#): > > Imagine you live in Gaza and Israel tells you to vacate because they are going to destroy your neighborhood. Do you think “well they are going to destroy my home but at least they told me so me and my family don’t die. gee those israelis are swell fellas.” or are you going to think “they blew up my fucking house!!!” I am going to think “they blew up my fucking house, and those fuckers in Hamas told me to stay put so I and my children would die and they could blame it on Israel.” Then I would think “if you want someone to get blown up for good PR then keep the rockets in your own fucking back yard and leave me in peace.” I wouldn’t say it out loud, because [Hamas kills its own](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hamas-kills-suspected-collaborators-with-israel-witnesses-say/) as freely as they kill Israelis, but I would think it. > [@](#): > > My point was that Palestinians weren’t voting for hamas so mucha s they were voting against Fatah and to make themselves more palatable to the Palestinians, they lied to them (imagine that, politicians lying to win elections). Who gives a flying fuck? The point is that Hamas is lying when they pretend they won’t kill Israelis if Israel makes nice. So we cannot depend on making nice if we want Hamas to stop killing Israelis. Stopping the settlements doesn’t do it, giving them Gaza to have their own state doesn’t do it, nothing seems to do it. So Israel has to kill them instead. Because nothing else works. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/398 "2014-07-16T18:51:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m always amazed that during all these idiotic arguments over the definition of “terrorism” and “terrorist” none of the anti-Israel crowd ever bring up the people and groups who founded Likud. > > It’s certainly the first thing Palestinian intellectuals usually bring up. Granted they actually care about the Palestinians and their cause. The difference is they won, so they get to call themselves freedom fighters ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/399 "2014-07-16T19:00:39Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So even when you stop doing somethign you shouldn’t be doing in the first place, you don’t get rewarded? Life is so unfair.:mad: If the other side doesn’t stop doing what they shouldn’t be doing, that’s even more unfair. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/400 "2014-07-16T19:09:10Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I was responding to a post that said “Given that there is no regional governing force that can do that, Israel gets to contain/render ineffective Hamas’ attacks.” > > See the word “can” That indicates that Abbas is unABLE to stop hamas, not that he is unWILLING to stop hamas. And similarly Mexico is unABLE to stop the mexican drug cartels. I frankly have no problem with israeli retaliation but I do have a problem with how they treat Palestinians when rockets aren’t flying in the air. Again all these world events I’m missing. I didn’t realize Abbas had authorized the Unity Government to intervene to stop the rocket attacks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=21)