# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/401 "2014-07-16T19:15:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No I see the difference, I just wanted confirmation. So then weren’t Irgun and Lehi terrorist organizations? Didn’t some of the leaders of these organizations end up as Israel’s political leaders? > > And BTW, aren’t some civilian casualties permissible in the pursuit of valid military targets (see King David Hotel). So why aren’t the passengers of the flight that was sent to the pentagon a permissible civilian casualty in the pursuit of a military target? Irgun and Lehi were in fact terrorist groups (though as has been pointed out, blowing up the King David hotel was not a terrorist act). The difference in treatment of the Irgun by the Israelis and Hamas by the Palestinians is instructive. The Israelis in fact fought a civil war against Irgun and suppressed them by force - turning them in to the British. It is true that, much later, former Irgun leader Began became PM, but Irgun itself essentially lost. This battle was known as “the Hunting Season” - i.e., hunting down Irgun. [The Saison - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunting_Season) Why did the nascent Israeli army fight against Irgun, who were on the same side? Because they recognized that having an active terror group on “their side” was an impediment to obtaining legitimacy as a country. They were right, as the Palestinian example shows all too well. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/402 "2014-07-16T19:52:32Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > The difference is they won, so they get to call themselves freedom fighters Actually, Irgun and Lehi were condemned by the Jewish leaders of the time and it took decades for Begin and Shamir to rehabilitate themselves politically. Glad to see that after I mentioned them the anti-Israel critics have decided to bring them up. BTW, that wasn’t a knock at you Yog and while I disagree with your comment it’s perfectly valid. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/403 "2014-07-16T20:44:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes, you could say that. It would be stupid, but you could say it. Because “we don’t want Hamas to fire rockets at us” is a legitimate grievance, and a leader who cannot or will not address it is irrelevant. “We don’t want Israel to exist” is not a legitimate grievance, and a leader who ignores it is still relevant. Aside from the terrorist attacks on israel, what grievances do you have? Do the Palestinians have an offensive odor? > [@](#): > > No one on my side in this thread has said this. So noone has said Hamas=Palestinians and grouped all palestinians together? > [@](#): > > Again, this is not close to true. As mentioned, Israel did [stop the settlements](http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/09/26/israel.settlement.moratorium/)for ten months, as well as negotiated a deal that would have given the Palestinians 95% of what they wanted. [The PA in the form of Arafat refused](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit). They didn’t make a counter-offer, they didn’t do anything. They just said No and kicked off another intifada. > > So they did try that. It did not have the results you think it would have. When you say 95% of what they wanted. What was the 5% they didn’t offer? > [@](#): > > I am going to think “they blew up my fucking house, and those fuckers in Hamas told me to stay put so I and my children would die and they could blame it on Israel.” Then I would think “if you want someone to get blown up for good PR then keep the rockets in your own fucking back yard and leave me in peace.” I wouldn’t say it out loud, because [Hamas kills its own](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hamas-kills-suspected-collaborators-with-israel-witnesses-say/) as freely as they kill Israelis, but I would think it. OK, so you wouldn’t blame the Israelis at all. I don’t think that is the most common reaction we see in Palestine (nor would it be the most common reaction we would see from most people. BTW are Hamas preventing people from leaving? because I see these pictures of people carrying their worldy possessions on carts that look like they belong to poor people on Game of Thrones away from areas taht are going to be attacked. Why isn’t Hamas killing those traitors? or are they actually just killing people they think are collaborators? > [@](#): > > Who gives a flying fuck? The point is that Hamas is lying when they pretend they won’t kill Israelis if Israel makes nice. So we cannot depend on making nice if we want Hamas to stop killing Israelis. Stopping the settlements doesn’t do it, giving them Gaza to have their own state doesn’t do it, nothing seems to do it. Well the person i was responding to said Palestinians=Hamas because they voted for them. I was pointing out that they were not voting for Hamas principles. This is conversation is getting a bit congested but do you agree that teh Palestinian vote for hamas was not an endorsement of Hams principles but a repudiation of Fatah corruption combined with what looked like Hamas moderation. > [@](#): > > So Israel has to kill them instead. Because nothing else works. I don’t have a problem with that as long as its the violent militant guys and not the humanitarian guys. I have not objected to israel’s retaliation, they have every right to retaliate. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/404 "2014-07-16T20:47:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If the other side doesn’t stop doing what they shouldn’t be doing, that’s even more unfair. > > Regards, > Shodan You think that building settlements is the only thing Israel is guilty of? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/405 "2014-07-16T20:50:25Z")
> [@Johnny\_Cashless](#): > > Your annecdote about greenhouses is so wrong headed a 16-year old in a debating society would be embarrassed to voice it. And you seemingly don’t get even a hint of that. I guess you’ve watched and read US media for quite some time. Would you be so kind as to post the true version of events, rather than just shout down what you don’t agree with? You aren’t helping here. You can’t fight ignorance by saying, “Boy, you sure are ignorant.” That doesn’t educate anyone. What did happen with the resources that Israel left in Gaza? I had heard the same story that **Terr** had heard: that some buildings, farms, and other structures had been left intact (while others had been demolished) but that the Gazan Palestinians refused to accept Israeli hand-me-downs and destroyed them. If you know better, don’t just dance around and crow, “I know better.” Tell us. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/406 "2014-07-16T20:51:20Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Again all these world events I’m missing. I didn’t realize Abbas had authorized the Unity Government to intervene to stop the rocket attacks. [http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/10/mahmoud-abbas-slams-hamas-over-rocket-attacks-on-israel-what-are-you-trying-to-achieve/](http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/10/mahmoud-abbas-slams-hamas-over-rocket-attacks-on-israel-what-are-you-trying-to-achieve/) I don’t know what the hell is he supposed to do about shit that is happening in Gaza when he is in the west bank? He is unABLE to do anything. If it was up to him and he could order them to stop, I think he would, I don’t think he is unwilling to stop the attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/407 "2014-07-16T20:52:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > . . . and give them a fair trial followed by a speedy execution. . . . Something about that phrasing seems a little disturbing somehow. Isn’t there something missing? What if the verdict is “not guilty?” ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/408 "2014-07-16T20:53:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Then what does it suggest when I say “perhaps the Zionists shouldn’t have created a country for themselves in the middle of land that was already occupied.” and you respond “A lot of ignorance here. Zionists bought the land, from its legal owners.” Let me know if you think i’m taking anything out of context because you seemed to be excusing the creation of a Jewish state that is largely populated by non-Jews by saying that Zionists bought the land. I didn’t get into whether or not a State’s creation was justified. I’d like to know how you’d begin to justify something. Once you do that justify the creation of say, Iraq or Syria or Lebanon versus Israel which I (assumption) believe you do not feel is justified in its creation. Even outside the Middle East what States do you view as justified/unjustified? Because obviously we can point to many problems behind almost any modern State’s creation depending on how we craft the concept of “justification” for its formation. I’d also like to know where you get the idea that Israel is populated largely by non-Jews, either now or in 1948. Israel’s Jewish population was like 80% in 1948, higher than it is now, even. > [@](#): > > If you got excited and overstated things when you just meant to say that zionists had bought some land in israel before turning the whole of the land into a Jewish state, that’s fine but it would be a meaningless statement. Just something that Zionists say so that people won’t think they stole the land from the palestinians (because they had bought some of it). You’re confusing the concepts of private land ownership with the existence of a State. If I owned 400 acres in Pennsylvania in 1773 when it was a Crown Colony, I wasn’t necessarily dispossessed when I stopped being a a subject of the King. So too is the case for Arab Israelis, who were not dispossessed en masse just because Israel was formed. Some Arabs were forcefully expelled, but of the “initial refugees” this was a small minority. The vast majority of Arabs who left the borders of Israel during the 1948 war were abandoning their homes out of opposition to the existence of Israel and / or just to avoid the ravages of war. They expected Israel would soon be destroyed and they could just return. But that didn’t happen, so they couldn’t. The Arabs who did not flee faced occasional mistreatment, but were largely allowed to keep their lands. They had curtailed rights, but were given full rights in the 60s. While the curtailment of rights was wrong, it was very analogous in justification to Japanese internment, it was based on legitimate heavy involvement by many of these Arabs in anti-government activities that would be viewed as treason by any neutral observer as long as you accept the legitimacy of Israel. Again, no more justified than Japanese internment but it puts it in context given the time/place and actions of other countries. There was far more expulsion of Jews/dispossession of Jews in the rest of the Middle East than there were of Arabs within Israel. Israel actually offered some Arabs specifically citizenship (East Jerusalem and Golan Heights Arabs), most turned it down as an act of protest. But the rest of the Arabs in the rest of Israel generally have citizenship and rights. They can be elected to high office. There are also Arab Jews, just so one doesn’t assume I’m using the term Arab/Muslim interchangeably (and Arab Christians as well, in Israel.) > [@](#): > > If you are going to get your authority for the legitimacy of the creation of israel from the mandate then: Your quotes got kind of jumbled/hard to read here. But are you asserting that the Jews took away all the civil rights of the non-Jewish population? That didn’t happen, non-Jews have broad civil rights in Israel. Legitimately more than they do in countries where their religion is the predominant one. A Muslim living in Israel has far more freedoms than one living in Saudi Arabia, especially if they weren’t lucky enough to be born with a penis. > [@](#): > > I believe that Jews were about a third of the population in israel when Israel was created as a jewish state. My sources are over 80%. [Citation](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/israel_palestine_pop.html). > [@](#): > > English is not my first language. > > You know who wants to commit genocide and kill all thepalestinians because they don’t really think palestinains are fully human? People like you. > > See I can do it too. Its just silly to say that you were not referring to me when you say “people like me” You are including me in a group of people that hold an opinion that I do not hold. Well, based on your response here I think you understood what I meant even if English is not your first language. People that spread lies about Israel also tend to be the types that want all kinds of other bad things about Israel. But if you genuinely believe all Israeli non-Jews lost all their property, lost all their freedoms, and they lived in an apartheid state where they were 2/3rds to 3/4ths of the population and ruled by a Jewish minority and you _genuinely_ believe that, I was too harsh on you. I think instead you are just really, really uneducated about the region’s history from this time period. > [@](#): > > So when was Lebanon formed and when was Israel formed. Were they formed under the same or similar circumstances? Very similar, yes. It was part of the French Mandate just as present day Israel was part of the British Mandate. The French eventually decided to let them have independence after ignoring previous expressed desires in that regard. Lebanon is a more demographically fucked up country than Israel, fractured immensely between different sects of Islam and even a (much smaller now) Christian minority. > [@](#): > > I’m not a middle east expert but I don’t really see any similarity other than the fact they they were all carved from the carcass of the Ottoman Empire. Did Iraq declare a mulsim state in a majority buddhist land? Were people in the area violently opposed to the independence of Iraq? Yes, there were lots of people in Iraq who were not happy with being ruled by people not like them. Iraq has a few ethnic groups and a few religious groups and while the Ottoman Empire was mostly able to keep its thumb on the region once the concept of it being its own country came about there was indeed quite a lot of distaste for letting “other groups” run things. It was different when it was the Ottoman Sultan in Istanbul than when it was the “other” local guys you didn’t like and weren’t part of. Many of the states carved in the Middle East had huge minorities that were from different sects of Islam, or different ethnicity, or sometimes even large non-Muslim sects (Coptic Christians, Maronites etc.) A lot of this is very similar to the situation the minority non-Jewish population of Israel would have found itself in. I think you are conflating what has true now and what was true then. > [@](#): > > Did Lebanon declare its independence as a Christian state? Sort of, some call Lebanon the oldest Christian state for some reason. And they informally always make their President Christian. Since they aren’t allowed to conduct censuses anymore no one knows the real demographics, but it’s expected the large Christian population from the 1940s is down to 10% now. > [@](#): > > None of these states declared their independence against the objections of virtually ALL the other nations in the region. What’s the point to this reference? A lot of people objected to the French overthrowing the monarchy or the Russians doing the same. Do other countries now get a veto on such matters? A justified veto, as you seem to think it would be? > [@](#): > > I spend a lot of time in France and I agree. I don’t really understand the anti-semitism, do they blame the Jews for the rise of the Nazis in a blame the victims sort of way or something? It really baffles me. Of course its nothing like the racism in israel against palestinians but I suppose France would be even more anti-semetic if Jews were killing people in reaction to the racism. There’s a big difference within Israel between how Palestianians–who are understood to be non-Israeli citizen Arabs who want land that is currently either in Israel proper or occupied by Israelis, and Arab Israelis. Arab Israelis do not face that much racism in Israel relative to what you seem to think. All the stories are primarily about clashes between the Israeli military and non-citizen Arabs who live in Palestinian territory. > [@](#): > > I think some of my reaction falls into this category (the anti-colonialist/imperialst sentiment) But how is that different from the people who hate Mexicans and don’t want them moving to America because it’s going to “change” our country? The Israelis/Zionists were very particularly not colonialist/imperialist in my mind, because they were not sponsored specifically by another large imperial power to a meaningful degree. Not comparable to the various British/French/etc colonies around the globe. Plus, there was a sizable Jewish population throughout the Middle East. Many of the earliest Israelis were large Jewish migrations from other parts of the Middle East to Israel. They had lived under Muslim rule for ages and were being forced out at that point, and went to a common area. People genuinely call it racist/xenophobic to be against the free movement of persons based solely on cultural opposition. > [@](#): > > To complete the analogy to make sense to me, there would be ONE mean little kid that became mean because Israel ate their lunch and that caused some of the other kids in the yard attacked the big fat kid and got their asses handed to them repeatedly, so now the other kids content themselves with shouting encouragement to the little kid who keeps getting beaten up by the big fat kid that takes a little bit of the little kid’s lunch every day but won’t share any of their lunch with the little kid. Except Israel really didn’t eat their lunch. Jews moved in over time, much like Mexicans have moved into the United States. > [@](#): > > Then, why are you focusing on the Palestinian response to the exclusion of acknowledging the provocation? Because the Palestinian response is what is the most nonsensical at the moment. To be honest, probably because you’re not super informed on the history, you’re focusing on a lot of stuff that isn’t really anything bad Israel did. There were actually Israeli massacres and atrocities back in the day that would be worth mentioning if you want to tar Israel (and Israel rightly deserves tar for them.) > [@](#): > > I just did that (well I read wikipedia) and I see that Lebanon was majority Christian at one point and yet they never declared a Christian state. There was a civil war as the muslims tried to break off and join Syria and there was a war but eventually it all died down as the muslims bred themselves into a majority and AFAICT, they are not killing off the Christian minority or treating them like second class citizens or anything like that. So Muslims breeding themselves into majority is okay, but Mexicans immigrating to make local majorities or Jews immigrating to make local majorities = bad. Right? And yes, Christians in Lebanon face all kinds of bad things right now. A large reason for the decreased Christian population is they fled to Western countries to escape Muslim oppression. > [@](#): > > The other states seemed to have at least some internal consensus that they wanted independence on the terms it achieved independence. By that metric so did Israel. > [@](#): > > In israel’s case, 1/3 of the country declared independence on terms that were unacceptable to 2/3 of the country and a shitstorm ensued for the next 65 years. If the numbers were anywhere close to that, instead of the exact opposite, you’d have a point. > [@](#): > > In what way? I don’t condone the murder of Israelis civilians. I think the expulsion of Jews from israel would simply replace a Palestinian humanitarian crisis with an even worse Jewish humanitarian crisis (just because of the number of people involved). I think that the original league of nations plan to have two states along with an internationally administered Jerusalem was probably the best solution among a choice of many bad solutions. I am having trouble seeing how Amy problems with bunch of mostly immigrant Jewish population declaring a Jewish state in the middle of a largely arab population is anything like Minute Men. Are the Mexican illegal immigrants delcaring a new Hispanic state along the US side of the Mexican border? No, but that’s because they aren’t immigrating to essentially a lawless area in a state of transition, being administered by foreign great powers, in which there are no real legitimate or established states (this describes the Middle East during/right after WW2.0 > [@](#): > > Maybe I missed where the illegal aliens along the mexican border have declared a Hispanic state on the US side of the border and exprotpriated the proporty of the US citizens already living there. By and large non-Jewish property was not appropriated. > [@](#): > > You sure this is such a good analogy? I am, but I actually no about the situation while you are in deep ignorance of it on many levels. > [@](#): > > I seem to recall an Israeli law that limited the rights of citizenship to people who were born in the occupied territories and married an Israeli citizen and the children of anyone who was descended from that marriage. [Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law) The occupied territories aren’t Israel. Non-Jews within Israel are frequently citizens as long as they were born there or went through the immigration/naturalization process. > [@](#): > > Part of me wonders how big a deal these differences would be if the middle east hadn’t been radicalized. Or was this sort of internecine fighting this bad all along? There’s always been internal warring between groups everywhere, not just in the Middle East. Technology and a lot of other things make it different. Nationalism for example can only exist in a fairly modernized and interconnected country, because without those things you have more hyper-regional affiliations. But there’s always room for lots of internecine fighting throughout history. Not in the Middle East exclusively but damn near everywhere that has civilization has had regular civil conflicts of various forms. > [@](#): > > Which European country started a war without criticism since WWII? Other than UN sanctioned wars, who has started shit since WWI without criticism? Israel gets singled out because there is an ongoing and perpetual injustice. Can you point to any other refugee crisis that would qualify for medicare in the US? The occupied territories are an injustice, but I’ve pointed out that fixing it isn’t like flipping a switch. Occupying Germany in the grand scheme of thing was a type of injustice in that we were denying Germans their civil rights and their freedom of self-government. But, it had to happen for the obvious reasons seen during WWII. It was ultimately a justified transgression against ethics since we helped rebuild Germany and set them on a much better path, and eventually gave them their freedom. But you understand for Israel to do the same, Palestinians need to stop shooting Israel? There has to be a graduated process, and the Palestinians are unable or unwilling to go through with it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/409 "2014-07-16T20:57:14Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > What did happen with the resources that Israel left in Gaza? I had heard the same story that **Terr** had heard: that some buildings, farms, and other structures had been left intact (while others had been demolished) but that the Gazan Palestinians refused to accept Israeli hand-me-downs and destroyed them. Those were not “hand me downs”. Some naive well-meaning rich American Jews [actually _bought_ those hothouses for $14M](http://www.nbcnews.com/id/9331863/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/looters-strip-gaza-greenhouses/#.U8bm3LGTFmM) from Gush Katif people specifically in order to hand them to Gazan Palestinians so that they could benefit from them. Instead, Palestinians completely destroyed them. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/410 "2014-07-16T20:57:38Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > (bolding mine) > > Israel has been placing settlers on occupied land since the 1970s and engages openly in collective punishment so I’d be a little careful in declaring just how obedient they are to international law. > > Admittedly most of their neighbors are hardly in a position to point fingers. Well, when I said “higher standards of international law” I certainly didn’t mean “the highest possible standards.” The incorporation of parts of the West Bank and the building of settlements in certain areas is not a good thing. It’s just better than what was proposed in the post I responded to, which suggested incorporating the whole of the West Bank (and which didn’t suggest at all what to do with the people already living there.) It’s sort of like saying that the U.S. lives up to high levels of obedience to international law. It’s true, even after such affronts as the Mosaddegh or Allende coups (with heavy CIA involvement.) We live in the kind of world where, “Well, at least we’re better than Russia” is about the best anyone can say about their country. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/411 "2014-07-16T20:57:57Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Incorrect. Yes, it’s like people don’t know what the first line of the Declaration of Independence says. (c. 1776) Or remember when the United States celebrated its bicentennial, it surely was not 1988. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/412 "2014-07-16T21:00:41Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > This is ignorant bullshit. > > When the UN urged the partition of Palestine the land set aside for the creation of a Jewish state was predominantly Jewish. Legitimate criticisms can be made as to how the borders were drawn but whoever told you that was either a fool or they trying to make a fool out of you. > > Errr… yes. The borders of Lebanon were drawn up by the French so that it would be majority Christian. This pissed off the Syrians who felt there was always far more of connection between Beirut and Damascus than between Damascus and Syria and as a result every Syrian government has refused to recognize the existence of an independent Lebanese state and to this day maps in Syria over the area which is Lebanon are labeled “Southern Syria”. > > They also set up laws whereby the President would always have to be a Christian, the parliament would have to be predominantly Christian and they refused to have any other censuses after the formation of Lebanon to preserve the fiction that Lebanon was a predominantly Christian country. > > Huh? Obviously the Shia were furious at the fact that despite being predominantly Shia the British put the Hashemites in charge and ensured that the rulers of Iraq would always be Sunnis not Shia. > > I’d think this was something that most people who’d followed the news regarding the Iraq War would be familiar with. > > Really? Turkey is, unlike Israel a member of NATO and a European nation(remember it was long called “the sick man of Europe”) yet it invaded Cyprus in the 70s, ethnically cleansed the Greek Cypriots from Northern Cyprus and has occupied it ever since while setting up a puppet government recognized by no other government other than Turkey. > > How much criticism has Turkey endured on this board due to that? > > How many threads have been devoted to that situation in contrast to the amount of threads on the Israel/Palestine conflict. > > Perhaps you can link us to some of your own posts where you’ve raged against it. > > If you can’t perhaps you could explain why you’ve ignored it? > > Also, Bulgaria is a European nation and ethnically cleansed it’s Turkish population in the 1980s. > > How much criticism has it received for doing so, particularly in comparison to the criticism that Israel has received. > > Again, perhaps you can link to some of your own posts criticizing this or explaining your refusal to do so. > > Thanks in advance. We’ve had some disagreements on our view on religious groups but **Ibn Warraq** is one of the few posters here I think actually know anything about the actual history of the Middle East and the demographics involved. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/413 "2014-07-16T21:06:31Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Irgun and Lehi were in fact terrorist groups (though as has been pointed out, blowing up the King David hotel was not a terrorist act). > > The difference in treatment of the Irgun by the Israelis and Hamas by the Palestinians is instructive. The Israelis in fact fought a civil war against Irgun and suppressed them by force - turning them in to the British. It is true that, much later, former Irgun leader Began became PM, but Irgun itself essentially lost. > > This battle was known as “the Hunting Season” - i.e., hunting down Irgun. > > [The Saison - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunting_Season) > > Why did the nascent Israeli army fight against Irgun, who were on the same side? Because they recognized that having an active terror group on “their side” was an impediment to obtaining legitimacy as a country. They were right, as the Palestinian example shows all too well. I had not heard of this before. Its interesting, perhaps one day there will be a civil war between Fatah and Hamas as well;). And maybe, one day some Hamas leaders will end up as President and Prime Minister of the newly formed palestinian state (presumably Zionists aren’t the only ones capable of being rehabilitated). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/414 "2014-07-16T21:10:50Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Would you be so kind as to post the true version of events, rather than just shout down what you don’t agree with? You aren’t helping here. You can’t fight ignorance by saying, “Boy, you sure are ignorant.” That doesn’t educate anyone. > > What did happen with the resources that Israel left in Gaza? I had heard the same story that **Terr** had heard: that some buildings, farms, and other structures had been left intact (while others had been demolished) but that the Gazan Palestinians refused to accept Israeli hand-me-downs and destroyed them. > > If you know better, don’t just dance around and crow, “I know better.” Tell us. Maybe you should direct those sort of comments at some of the people on your side of the argument as well. You know, the ones that think that the pro-Israel side of the debate are the only ones that ever heard of zionist terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/415 "2014-07-17T00:42:34Z")
> [@bardos](#): > > The basic problem of the middle east is that… wait for it… they are all assholes. > > Cure the assholedness and we might get a solution. It would be like the end of the Berlin wall. > > Overnight. At last, someone succinctly states what I think is the core of the problem. It seems to me that for years now I have been oscillating between who is more right/less wrong. In the end, I don’t think any of them really want things any different, because it clearly isn’t worth one iota of compromise. They’ve made that abundantly clear through their actions. One thing I have always wondered is why the Palestinians haven’t learned from history. Drop the rockets and engage in a mass hunger strike. I have never understood it, but once people start dying that way, international pressure seems to ratchet up pretty quick. What they need is a Ghandi or an MLK. I bet with one of those, they’d get most of what they want within 3 years. Probably not that whole destruction of Israel thing. I can’t see that working out for them. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/416 "2014-07-17T01:18:26Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > What they need is a Ghandi or an MLK. I bet with one of those, they’d get most of what they want within 3 years. Probably not that whole destruction of Israel thing. I can’t see that working out for them. Your mistake here is thinking that they want something other than “that whole destruction of Israel thing”. That is what they want. That’s the first priority. All that other stuff, like the state of their own etc. is the means to the goal, not the goal itself. And you can’t reach that goal by being a Ghandi or an MLK. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/417 "2014-07-17T01:38:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Your mistake here is thinking that they want something other than “that whole destruction of Israel thing”. That is what they want. That’s the first priority. All that other stuff, like the state of their own etc. is the means to the goal, not the goal itself. And you can’t reach that goal by being a Ghandi or an MLK. I don’t know about that: Gandhi’s belief that the Jews should throw themselves on the mercy of the Nazis and the Arabs seems right up Hamas’s alley. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/418 "2014-07-17T02:31:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Your mistake here is thinking that they want something other than “that whole destruction of Israel thing”. That is what they want. That’s the first priority. All that other stuff, like the state of their own etc. is the means to the goal, not the goal itself. And you can’t reach that goal by being a Ghandi or an MLK. Maybe it is naive of me, but I have always thought that was really an edifice designed to control/drive population and power on the part of the leadership. Is it your contention that if Israel said “Fine. You can have everything you want except destruction of Israel. You don’t mess with us, we don’t mess with you” that the Palestinians (not the current Hamas leadership per se) would not accept that? I am asking that as a serious question, not a rhetorical one. Because if the answer is yes, each is willing to let the other exist in genuine peace\*, then peace is possible. If not, the only options remaining are perpetual conflict or genocide, neither of which is attractive. \*Genuine means no attacks, no allowance for terrorism tacit or explicit, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/419 "2014-07-17T02:55:45Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > Maybe it is naive of me, but I have always thought that was really an edifice designed to control/drive population and power on the part of the leadership. Is it your contention that if Israel said “Fine. You can have everything you want except destruction of Israel. You don’t mess with us, we don’t mess with you” that the Palestinians (not the current Hamas leadership per se) would not accept that? > > I am asking that as a serious question, not a rhetorical one. Because if the answer is yes, each is willing to let the other exist in genuine peace\*, then peace is possible. If not, the only options remaining are perpetual conflict or genocide, neither of which is attractive. > > \*Genuine means no attacks, no allowance for terrorism tacit or explicit, etc. Serious? Ok, here is serious. You know how Palestinians have this “back to 1967 borders” formula, right? Well, from 1948 to 1967 all that land that they wanted was under Arab control. Were there attacks on Israel from that territory? Yes. Was there any effort to create an independent state of “Palestine” on that land? No. That shows how much the so-called “Palestinians” wanted their own state vs. how much they wanted to destroy Israel. “There is no such country [as Palestine]! ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was, for centuries, part of Syria.” Auni Bey Abd al-Hadi, Secretary-General of the Arab Higher Committee of Mandatory Palestine, in his testimony to the Palestine Royal Commission of 1936 * * * PLO Covenant (founded in 1964): Article 24. This Organization does not exercise any regional sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, in the Gaza Strip [occupied by Egypt] or in the Hammah area [occupied by Syria]. Its activities will be on the national popular level in the liberational, organizational, political and financial fields. * * * “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the State of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality, Today, there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak, Today, about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan – which is a sovereign state with defined borders – cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa. While, as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beersheba and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.” ## (Interview given by Zahir Muhsein, head of the Palestine Liberation Organization’s Military Department and a member of its Executive Committee to Amsterdam-based newspaper “Dagblad de Verdieping Trouw”, March 31, 1977). “Allah be praised, we all have Arab roots; and every Palestinian, in Gaza and throughout Palestine, can prove his Arab roots – whether from Saudi Arabia, from Yemen, or anywhere. We have blood ties. So where is your affection and mercy? . . . Personally, half my family is Egyptian. We are all like that. More than 30 families in the Gaza Strip are called [by the last name] al-Masri [meaning: “the Egyptian”]. Brothers, half of the Palestinians are Egyptians and the other half are Saudis. Who are the Palestinians? We have many families called al-Masri, whose roots are Egyptian. Egyptian! They may be from Alexandria, from Cairo, from Dumietta, from the North, from Aswan, from Upper Egypt. We are Egyptians. We are Arabs. We are Muslims. We are a part of you.” ## (Excerpt from speech by Fathi Hammad, then Hamas’ Minister of the Interior and of National Security, aired on Egypt-based Al-Hekmah TV, March 23, 2012) Today, all that the Palestinians have to do to get their own bona fide, independent, sovereign state, is to come out and say "We want to prove to you we can be good neighbors. For the next 10 years, we will do everything possible to prevent any terrorist attacks on Israelis. We will not attack Jews - whether settlers or not. We will not shoot, stab, or blow up Jews. We will hunt down the extremists in our midst ourselves, or help you hunt them down, to the best of our ability. We will make preaching hatred toward Jews illegal in territories under our control. We will change our school books to remove all the antisemitic crap that’s in them. We will stop glorifying terrorists on state-run media, naming schools after them and teaching kids to venerate them. After these 10 years, we want to declare an independent state of Palestine. We will not expel Jews living on this territory right now - they can become citizens in the new state. We will need police forces, but we will not need a military, since we know you Israelis are paranoid (quite justifiably) about it. We want to be good neighbors, with bilateral trade, good relations, mutual tourism, and we want to learn from you how you become an economic powerhouse and to emulate it for our people’s benefit." I lived in Israel. I am Israeli. I know Israelis. After 10 years of this, if this really happens, there will be no power in Israeli politics that will be able to prevent that Palestine state from becoming reality. If there is a referendum about it, there will be a 70%+ majority for it. Too bad it’s just a fantasy. There is 100% certainty that it will not happen. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/420 "2014-07-17T03:15:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > [http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/10/mahmoud-abbas-slams-hamas-over-rocket-attacks-on-israel-what-are-you-trying-to-achieve/](http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/10/mahmoud-abbas-slams-hamas-over-rocket-attacks-on-israel-what-are-you-trying-to-achieve/) > > I don’t know what the hell is he supposed to do about shit that is happening in Gaza when he is in the west bank? He is unABLE to do anything. If it was up to him and he could order them to stop, I think he would, I don’t think he is unwilling to stop the attacks. Right but you made the comparison to between Abbas and Hamas vs. Mexico and drug cartels. Mexico’s military is in direct conflict attempting to disrupt the cartels while Abbas and the unity government has not, aside from bromides, done anything material to stop the rockets. I sympathize with Abbas and his position. I think he’d much rather achieve economic development and security for Gaza and the West Bank prior to moving onto negotiations but he is is no way, shape or form an influence on anything that Hamas chooses to do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=22)