# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/441 "2014-07-17T18:01:19Z")
> [@Johnny\_Cashless](#): > > **In todays news** : > > Nice - war tourism (with cheering): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world/middleeast/israelis-watch-bombs-drop-on-gaza-from-front-row-seats.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world/middleeast/israelis-watch-bombs-drop-on-gaza-from-front-row-seats.html?_r=0) > The herioc Israeli Navy shells boys playing football on a beach, and kills four - direct NBC quote: > > [Innocent and Gone: Israeli Strike on Gaza Kills Four Children](http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/middle-east-unrest/innocent-gone-israeli-strike-gaza-kills-four-children-n157301) I don’t see that quote in the piece. Are you trying to pass off an internet comment as a claim by an NBC reporter? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/442 "2014-07-17T18:09:52Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I don’t see that quote in the piece. Are you trying to pass off an internet comment as a claim by an NBC reporter? Why would I do that 😕 It’s in many places, for instance here: > **[NBC reportedly orders Mohyeldin to leave Gaza — after he criticized State Dep’t](https://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/monstrosity-resonates-uncomfortably/)** > > Update: Glenn Greenwald reports that Ayman Mohyeldin has been pulled by NBC from Gaza: I’m speculating that the reason for Mohyeldin’s departure might be that he yesterday tweeted implicit criticism… Or put a phrase in Google for your own choice, something like “It was broad daylight. There was no warning" ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/443 "2014-07-17T18:33:16Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > This simply is not true, in the current conflict under discussion. In days of war, Israel has only killed less than 200 people. If Israel acted, as you claim, as if they were “…willing to go to any extreme in satisfying their needs … for security”, they would use WW2-type tactics on Gaza, which would result in tens of thousands - maybe hundreds of thousands - of deaths. > > See, the problem here is hyperbole. Counter-battery fire against someone shooting at you may be right or it may be wrong, but it isn’t a “selfish asshole” act. Perhaps, given the context of this thread, I should have been more clear. I meant that, in general, they are behaving as selfish assholes. Treating all Palestinians like prisoners, restricting where they can fish, where they can go, building settlements, security cordons right through farmers’ lands, etc. As a matter of fact, in this particular case, I think Israel had no choice but to respond to the rocket attacks. But tell me, given that the people there are largely at the mercy of the Israelis, what have the Israelis done to better the situation? Do they not have some responsibility to the innocent civilian (which, admittedly, may be somewhat rare)? Again, and I want to be clear, Hamas and the Palestinians in general haven’t done much to deserve compassion. The populace apparently supports Hamas, which is probably not the way to peace. They just want revenge. Thus the reason for my earlier comments. Outside the conflict, the total of the discussion seems to be who’s more right or less wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/444 "2014-07-17T18:39:04Z")
Lots of tweets from people actually happy that children were killed. Disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/445 "2014-07-17T19:01:30Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > Perhaps, given the context of this thread, I should have been more clear. I meant that, in general, they are behaving as selfish assholes. Treating all Palestinians like prisoners, restricting where they can fish, where they can go, building settlements, security cordons right through farmers’ lands, etc. As a matter of fact, in this particular case, I think Israel had no choice but to respond to the rocket attacks. > > But tell me, given that the people there are largely at the mercy of the Israelis, what have the Israelis done to better the situation? Do they not have some responsibility to the innocent civilian (which, admittedly, may be somewhat rare)? > > Again, and I want to be clear, Hamas and the Palestinians in general haven’t done much to deserve compassion. The populace apparently supports Hamas, which is probably not the way to peace. They just want revenge. Thus the reason for my earlier comments. > > Outside the conflict, the total of the discussion seems to be who’s more right or less wrong. Israelis have done many shitty things. As, in fact, have most countries in the world. Most of whom do not get into constant debates as to whether or not they have any right to even exist. Or have large terrorist goups out there with the avowed intention of destroying them. Are many Israeli actions selfish? You bet they are. They are (or at least, the right wing politicians are) perfectly willing to use Palestinian weakness as an excuse to snip off as much territory as they can get away with. Which is, I think, totally wrong and counter-productive to any peace. However, in fairness, it should be pointed out that Israelis have, in the past, proved perfectly willing to hand _back_ land they have seized, in order to secure peace - including dismantling settlements (and dragging out settlers, by force). One example worked - namely, Israel handed the entire Sinai over to Egypt, in exchange for a peace treaty - dismantling settlements and divesting itself of the Sinai’s mineral resources. One example did not work - namely, Israel handed over Gaza to the Palestinians, dismantling settlements there - and in return it got - Hamas. In short, Israel is capable of great selfishness and injustice (what country is not?), but on the other hand - it is also capable of making concessions for peace. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/446 "2014-07-17T19:28:02Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > But tell me, given that the people there are largely at the mercy of the Israelis, what have the Israelis done to better the situation? Do they not have some responsibility to the innocent civilian (which, admittedly, may be somewhat rare)? Keeping in mind that the PA is supposed to be its own state, Israel collects the tax for the PA, and, in response to an earlier crisis, handed over about $100 million rather than use it to pay the PA’s bills. ([Cite.](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/31/world/middleeast/israel-to-transfer-tax-funds-to-palestinians.html)) The problem seems to be that PA politicians are often either [corrupt thieves](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/resources/reports-and-publications/8820-corruption-in-the-palestinian-authority), or murderous terrorists. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/447 "2014-07-17T19:47:56Z")
I guess the boys deaths will be reported on the nightly news, right? ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/448 "2014-07-17T19:48:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Keeping in mind that the PA is supposed to be its own state, Israel collects the tax for the PA, and, in response to an earlier crisis, handed over about $100 million rather than use it to pay the PA’s bills. ([Cite.](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/31/world/middleeast/israel-to-transfer-tax-funds-to-palestinians.html)) > > The problem seems to be that PA politicians are often either [corrupt thieves](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/resources/reports-and-publications/8820-corruption-in-the-palestinian-authority), or murderous terrorists. > > Regards, > Shodan That response is… unsatisfying. Israel collects the tax for a political entity with some state functions, and I suppose that it was nice of them that they didn’t confiscate money that they arguably had rights to, but that doesn’t really count for much in my book. Look, I don’t want to get in a detailed tit for tat over who does more for the other, or whose hands are covered in more blood. My central point was (I’ll set aside the vulgarities; please accept that “asshole” was shorthand for what follows): Both sides seem to prefer the status quo to the specific actions that might provide for an improvement in the situation. Instead, they would rather act in their respective emotional self interests at the expense of long term betterment, despite the fact that they each KNOW that this is not going to resolve the conflict in any way, even by total defeat. During lulls in hostility, I don’t believe they act in good faith. During hostilities, each plays to his strengths, naturally. For Israel that’s a sophisticated military capable of bringing calibrated force on a specific spot. For Hamas that’s random terror. As I keep saying, without less bad faith, there’s only two possibilities I see. Continued hostilities and genocide. And if neither is willing to break out of that, then I call that being an asshole. Perhaps you have a different word for it? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/449 "2014-07-17T20:02:06Z")
CNN is reporting a ground [del]war.[/del] “operation.” ETA: it’s just an operation. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/450 "2014-07-17T20:06:36Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > That response is… unsatisfying. Israel collects the tax for a political entity with some state functions, and I suppose that it was nice of them that they didn’t confiscate money that they arguably had rights to, but that doesn’t really count for much in my book. > > Look, I don’t want to get in a detailed tit for tat over who does more for the other, or whose hands are covered in more blood. > > My central point was (I’ll set aside the vulgarities; please accept that “asshole” was shorthand for what follows): Both sides seem to prefer the status quo to the specific actions that might provide for an improvement in the situation. Instead, they would rather act in their respective emotional self interests at the expense of long term betterment, despite the fact that they each KNOW that this is not going to resolve the conflict in any way, even by total defeat. During lulls in hostility, I don’t believe they act in good faith. During hostilities, each plays to his strengths, naturally. For Israel that’s a sophisticated military capable of bringing calibrated force on a specific spot. For Hamas that’s random terror. > > As I keep saying, without less bad faith, there’s only two possibilities I see. Continued hostilities and genocide. And if neither is willing to break out of that, then I call that being an asshole. Perhaps you have a different word for it? Huh? Have you not read my previous post? Israel _has_ handed over large amounts of territory for peace - including, one may point out, the very Gaza that Hamas is now entrenched in. Do you require cites for that? Sinai: > [@](#): > > In 1979, Egypt and Israel signed a peace treaty in which Israel agreed to withdraw from the entirety of Sinai. Israel subsequently withdrew in several stages, ending in 1982. The Israeli pull-out involved dismantling almost all Israeli settlements, including the settlement of Yamit in north-eastern Sinai. The exception was the coastal city of Sharm el-Sheikh, which the Israelis had renamed as Ofira during the period of their occupation. The Treaty allows monitoring of Sinai by the Multinational Force and Observers, and limits the number of Egyptian military forces in the peninsula. > **[Sinai Peninsula](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinai_Peninsula#History)** > > The Sinai Peninsula, or simply Sinai (/ˈsaɪnaɪ/ SY-ny; Arabic: سِينَاء; Egyptian Arabic: سينا; Coptic: Ⲥⲓⲛⲁ), is a peninsula in Egypt, and the only part of the country located in Asia. It is between the Mediterranean Sea to the north and the Red Sea to the south, and is a land bridge between Asia and Africa. Sinai has a land area of about 60,000 km2 (23,000 sq mi) (6 percent of Egypt's total area) and a population of approximately 600,000 people. Administratively, the vast majority of the area... Gaza: > [@](#): > > In February 2005, the Knesset approved a unilateral disengagement plan to implement the Oslo Agreement and began removing Israeli settlers from the Gaza Strip in 2005. All Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip and the joint Israeli-Palestinian Erez Industrial Zone were dismantled, and 9,000 Israelis, most living in Gush Katif, were forcibly evicted. > **[Gaza Strip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#2005_Israel.27s_unilateral_disengagement)** > > The Gaza Strip (/ˈɡɑːzə/ ⓘ; Arabic: قِطَاعُ غَزَّةَ Qiṭāʿ Ġazzah \[qɪˈtˤɑːʕ ˈɣaz.za\]), also known simply as Gaza, is a small territory located on the eastern coast of the Mediterranean Sea; it is the smaller of the two Palestinian territories, the other being the West Bank, that make up the State of Palestine. Inhabited by mostly Palestinian refugees and their descendants, Gaza is one of the most densely populated territories in the world. An end of 2024 estimate puts the population of the Str ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/451 "2014-07-17T20:55:47Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > That response is… unsatisfying. Israel collects the tax for a political entity with some state functions, and I suppose that it was nice of them that they didn’t confiscate money that they arguably had rights to, but that doesn’t really count for much in my book. Israel hands over a hundred million that they had rights to, but that doesn’t count. Israel hands over land that they had rights to, but that doesn’t count. Israel offers a deal that gives the Palestinians 95%+ of what they say they want, but that doesn’t count. > [@](#): > > Both sides seem to prefer the status quo to the specific actions that might provide for an improvement in the situation. This is just not true. Neither side prefers the status quo - Israel wants peace and has made numerous concessions to try to get it. Hamas wants to destroy Israel and is not willing to make any concessions away from that position. The status quo was where Israel makes concessions, and in return Hamas shoots rockets at Israel and tries to kill Israelis. > [@](#): > > Look, I don’t want to get in a detailed tit for tat over who does more for the other, or whose hands are covered in more blood. Why not? > [@](#): > > During lulls in hostility, I don’t believe they act in good faith. In what ways do you think Israel acts in bad faith during lulls in the hostilities? If you mean building settlements, then why was the good-faith effort of the moratorium on settlements not met with any good-faith effort by the PA? Why was the good-faith effort to negotiate in the Camp David meeting rejected by the PA without any effort at a good-faith effort in return? Do you think Hamas is entitled to get everything they want with nothing in return? If not, why should Israel be pressured to act as they were? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/452 "2014-07-18T00:01:13Z")
> [@Johnny\_Cashless](#): > > I guess the boys deaths will be reported on the nightly news, right? It happened right across from a hotel that a bunch of journalists are staying in, so yes I saw it on the 11:00 new last night. Does that mean something to you? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/453 "2014-07-18T07:26:29Z")
Me? What? Thread gone quiet for 12 hours; why less collective SD approval for the collective Palestinian punishment? Are people busy watching and cheering the death of women and children from hilltops outside Gaza? ---
**Author:** ![bardos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bardos/32/1069_2.png) [@bardos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bardos)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/454 "2014-07-18T07:51:47Z")
The saddest thing is having politicians, who are more interested in their own political survival at the top, taking decisions that cause death and suffering for the 99% ordinary folk. This is so sad… death and destruction… for what? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/455 "2014-07-18T08:00:59Z")
> [@bardos](#): > > The saddest thing is having politicians, who are more interested in their own political survival at the top, taking decisions that cause death and suffering for the 99% ordinary folk. This is so sad… death and destruction… for what? The 99% of ordinary folk voted for a political block that openly declared it’s intentions. If you vote Nazis you suffer the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![bardos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bardos/32/1069_2.png) [@bardos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bardos)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/456 "2014-07-18T08:06:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The 99% of ordinary folk voted for a political block that openly declared it’s intentions. If you vote Nazis you suffer the consequences. You overrate elections. There is rarely a real choice. See U.S.A. elections ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/457 "2014-07-18T11:35:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Israel hands over a hundred million that they had rights to, but that doesn’t count. Israel hands over land that they had rights to, but that doesn’t count. Israel offers a deal that gives the Palestinians 95%+ of what they say they want, but that doesn’t count. > This is just not true. Neither side prefers the status quo - Israel wants peace and has made numerous concessions to try to get it. Hamas wants to destroy Israel and is not willing to make any concessions away from that position. > > The status quo was where Israel makes concessions, and in return Hamas shoots rockets at Israel and tries to kill Israelis. > Why not? > In what ways do you think Israel acts in bad faith during lulls in the hostilities? If you mean building settlements, then why was the good-faith effort of the moratorium on settlements not met with any good-faith effort by the PA? Why was the good-faith effort to negotiate in the Camp David meeting rejected by the PA without any effort at a good-faith effort in return? > > Do you think Hamas is entitled to get everything they want with nothing in return? If not, why should Israel be pressured to act as they were? > > Regards, > Shodan The reason I didn’t want to have the tit for tat is for exactly this reason: You know that Israel continues to expand some settlements even while dismantling some others. In your quote above you say Israel “had rights to [the land],” but I don’t know that’s true. My understanding is that these settlements are not generally considered legal by the rest of the world. You also ignored my other points about the treatment of the population as a whole with severe restrictions on travel, dividing up farmer’s lands and preventing access, and a general collective punishment approach. We could spend three more pages on a parade of horribles on each side… Which interestingly would prove my original point. And I find your last statement disingenuous. I think I have been clear that I don’t believe the Palestinians are any better than the Israelis. I have made that assertion (that they are both bad) in every single post on this topic. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/458 "2014-07-18T13:22:49Z")
You don’t see a false equivalence in your view of the moral actions of Hamas and Israel in this instance? You see an equality of … badness I guess … between Hamas (intentionally targeting civilians and intentional placing their population in the path of retaliation) and Israel (intentionally targeting rocket launch site and now military infrastructure in a densely populated region) and I have to admit I find that strange. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/459 "2014-07-18T13:45:38Z")
> [@bardos](#): > > You overrate elections. There is rarely a real choice. See U.S.A. elections uh huh. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/460 "2014-07-18T14:04:49Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > intentionally targeting rocket launch site and now military infrastructure in a densely populated region You must surely have grasped by now launch infrastructure is utterly minimal and the rockets are launced on timers. For very obvious reasons. You really think those dumb Arabs are going to spend weeks building some fancy launch platform and then hang around smoking watching the launch? So tired, so cliched. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=24)