# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/481 "2014-07-19T02:15:59Z")
> [@Johnny\_Cashless](#): > > Stop it with the comic book talk. Seriously, walk into a bar and start talking to normal people like this for 5 minutes. If you get 5 minutes. > > Weird, weird talk. I have. Normal people believe that the bloodthirsty Palestinians should stop shooting their vengeance weapons into Israel. IF the Palestinian goal is a peaceful settlement. IF the Palestinian goal is to destroy Israel and murder as many Israelis as possible, then launching vengeance weapons is the way to go. And Israel will continue to DEFEND itself. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/482 "2014-07-19T03:51:01Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > And you would have guessed wrong. ☹ > > In 1776, there were 13 colonies and each had it’s own government. 13 States and 13 governments. 14 if you count England’s Parliament. The 2nd Continental Congress issued a declaration of independence from the 13 separate and independent entities (aka the 13 States united in a common cause). > > In 1776, the Constitutional Convention of 1787 hadn’t taken place yet. The 2-house “Connecticut Compromise” hadn’t been thought of yet. The U.S. Constitution had not been ratified yet. > > In 1776, the Articles of Confederation, which would established the 13 States/colonies as a confederation of sovereign states, had not yet been ratified. That occurred in 1777. You flunked History, Civics, and Government classes? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/483 "2014-07-19T04:26:40Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You flunked History, Civics, and Government classes? ??? What did he say that was incorrect? Please, everyone: instead of just saying, “My goodness, how ignorant you are,” can you go into some detail on why? Just saying, “That’s wrong” doesn’t help us learn. Take the additional step of putting down what the correct answers are. As far as I can tell, his answers were fine. He may not be the one who flunked. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/484 "2014-07-19T09:16:34Z")
Minor little thing known as fact shows that I didn’t flunk those subjects. Now, admittedly, the USA’s government that existed prior to the current constitution came into effect was ineffective and unworkable; however, that’s not the point. The point is that the USA as a country was in existence before that constitution came into effect. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/485 "2014-07-19T14:13:01Z")
> [@](#): > > the truth behind this latest assault is finally coming out: as J.J. Goldberg wrote in The Forward, the Israeli government lied, and created this situation. > > For weeks, the government knew that the three kidnapped teenagers were dead. But they instituted a gag order on the media, lied to Israelis and the world, and falsely claimed the mass arrests and collective punishment of Palestinians was all in the hopes of finding the teenagers alive. > > In other words, their chosen response was to kidnap the mind of an entire country. > > **From the very beginning, this has been about punishing Palestinians. From the beginning, the government has been willing to manipulate and use its own people for that goal.** [Feel free to sign his petition](http://mywaytofight.wordpress.com/2014/07/11/a-desperate-plea-from-an-israeli-jew/) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/486 "2014-07-19T14:24:29Z")
Gotta love conspiracy theories. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/487 "2014-07-19T15:04:42Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Gotta love conspiracy theories. POW!!1! Spoken like a desciple of the Internet. You may or may not agree with the gist but this is an interesting narrative on how Netanyahu used the Israeli boys death to best advantage, and led us to here: > [@](#): > > The initial evidence was the recording of victim Gilad Shaer’s desperate cellphone call to Moked 100, Israel’s 911. When the tape reached the security services the next morning — neglected for hours by Moked 100 staff — the teen was heard whispering “They’ve kidnapped me” (“hatfu oti”) followed by shouts of “Heads down,” then gunfire, two groans, more shots, then singing in Arabic. That evening searchers found the kidnappers’ abandoned, torched Hyundai, with eight bullet holes and the boys’ DNA. There was no doubt. > > Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu immediately placed a gag order on the deaths. Journalists who heard rumors were told the Shin Bet wanted the gag order to aid the search. For public consumption, the official word was that Israel was “acting on the assumption that they’re alive.” It was, simply put, a lie. > **[How Politics and Lies Triggered an Unintended War in Gaza](https://forward.com/opinion/201764/how-politics-and-lies-triggered-an-unintended-war/)** > > In the flood of angry words that poured out of Israel and Gaza during a week of spiraling violence, few statements were more blunt, or more telling, than this throwaway line by the chief spokesman of the Israeli military, Brigadier General Moti... ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/488 "2014-07-19T15:47:49Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Minor little thing known as fact shows that I didn’t flunk those subjects. Now, admittedly, the USA’s government that existed prior to the current constitution came into effect was ineffective and unworkable; however, that’s not the point. The point is that the USA as a country was in existence before that constitution came into effect. Correct, and even before the Articles of Confederation. The United States declared their collective independence from the United Kingdom in 1776, and immediately began combined military, diplomatic, economic etc activities. A formal framework for this didn’t get established until the 1776 AoC, but some countries (the United Kingdom for example) have been without a strict framework for ages. The United States itself claims 1776 as its founding year, and since they decided to fight about it, and the U.S. won, back when it happened, there’s also broad international recognition of this. You do not need a constitution at all to exist as a country/state. Most European States that were founded as Kingdoms in the early middle ages did not have constitutions for generations, Britain still doesn’t have a single, formalized “written” one. Further, every other country founded by a colonial independence movement, the date of the country’s declared independence is almost always what is recognized as the beginning of that country as an independent State. Countries that didn’t have a true independence “movement”, like Canada, are recognized as having been a mostly independent but “subordinate” state for long before true independence. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/489 "2014-07-19T16:40:23Z")
> [@Johnny\_Cashless](#): > > POW!!1! Spoken like a desciple of the Internet. > > You may or may not agree with the gist but this is an interesting narrative on how Netanyahu used the Israeli boys death to best advantage, and led us to here: > > [How Politics and Lies Triggered an Unintended War in Gaza – The Forward](http://forward.com/articles/201764/how-politics-and-lies-triggered-an-unintended-war/?p=1) The assumption is that they’ve been shot and removed from the scene and need medical attention. Writing the kids off would have been unthinkable until verified. Moving on to the rockets fired, no nation is going to put up with that nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/490 "2014-07-19T17:01:27Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Minor little thing known as fact shows that I didn’t flunk those subjects. Now, admittedly, the USA’s government that existed prior to the current constitution came into effect was ineffective and unworkable; however, that’s not the point. The point is that the USA as a country was in existence before that constitution came into effect. In 1776, there were 13 united American colonies who had gathered together and declared their independence from British rule. You refer to “the USA’s government” as if it actually existed before it was created. In the 1776 Declaration of Independence, the representatives of the 13 colony’s individual governments did not identify themselves as the United States of America. They did referred to themselves as: the 13 united States of America, the “good People of these Colonies”, “these United Colonies”, and as “FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES”. That doesn’t sound as if they thought of themselves as a singular United States of America, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/491 "2014-07-19T17:05:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The assumption is that they’ve been shot and removed from the scene and need medical attention. Right, gunfire in order to wounded three boys individually, and then singing to celebrate the wounding of the three - is this confirmed by political spokesman or does it come out of your head? I ask because (a) the author seems pretty well connected (b) you don’t, and (c) I’m not aware of any Israeli Gov official refuting the narrative described, inc. Netanyahu’s decision to use the deaths to his advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/492 "2014-07-19T17:16:00Z")
> [@Johnny\_Cashless](#): > > Right, gunfire in order to wounded three boys individually, and then singing to celebrate the wounding of the three - is this confirmed by political spokesman or does it come out of your head? Until they find them it’s a rescue mission. This is not even a discussion point. > [@Johnny\_Cashless](#): > > I ask because (a) the author seems pretty well connected (b) you don’t, and (c) I’m not aware of any Israeli Gov official refuting the narrative described, inc. Netanyahu’s decision to use the deaths to his advantage. The author seems pretty well connected to who, the killers? And once the deaths are confirmed how is the response going to be any different? Hamas has gone to the well of terrorism one too many times. They need to go. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/493 "2014-07-19T17:38:12Z")
> [@Johnny\_Cashless](#): > > POW!!1! Spoken like a desciple of the Internet. Dude, you just admitted on another thread you had no idea who King Hussein was. Are you really sure you’re the person who should be attacking people for their alleged ignorance regarding the Middle East? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/494 "2014-07-19T17:44:28Z")
Jeez, you’re a tough inquisitor. You totally found me out about the King guy and the Dark November people. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/495 "2014-07-19T18:09:40Z")
> [@Johnny\_Cashless](#): > > Jeez, you’re a tough inquisitor. You totally found me out about the King guy and the Dark November people. It’s [Black September](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan). But I guess Palestinian deaths are a laughing matter, unless it’s Israelis who are killing them. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/496 "2014-07-19T18:34:04Z")
They changed the name already? ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/497 "2014-07-19T19:00:49Z")
Yes, they knew the kids were dead and kept the relatives in false hope for political reasons. Meanwhile the NBC reporter who saw the four children blown to bits on the beach has been withdrawn, with his producer, and replaced by staff carefully chosen to make sure they don’t speak Arabic. A CNN reporter has also been reassigned because she criticised some Israelis who were cheering the bombing of Gazan civilians and were also issuing death threats against herself. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/498 "2014-07-19T19:18:36Z")
First off, Richard Engel speaks Arabic. Second, while Ayman Mohyeldin was pulled from Gaza, he’s back now. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/499 "2014-07-19T19:20:32Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Yes, they knew the kids were dead and kept the relatives in false hope for political reasons. > > Meanwhile the NBC reporter who saw the four children blown to bits on the beach has been withdrawn, with his producer, and replaced by staff carefully chosen to make sure they don’t speak Arabic. A CNN reporter has also been reassigned because she criticised some Israelis who were cheering the bombing of Gazan civilians and were also issuing death threats against herself. Actually the NBC reporter is back. Also, where did you hear they made sure to get people who didn’t speak Arabic? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/500 "2014-07-20T02:22:57Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Your mistake here is thinking that they want something other than “that whole destruction of Israel thing”. That is what they want. That’s the first priority. All that other stuff, like the state of their own etc. is the means to the goal, not the goal itself. And you can’t reach that goal by being a Ghandi or an MLK. So, the folks like Abbas in the West Bank would only settle for the destruction of the state of israel? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=26)