# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/541 "2014-07-21T16:55:53Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Hamas /= Palestinians any more than Irgun = Zionists > > How in the hell are rocket attacks going to help Hamas destroy Israel (heck I get the distinct impression that they’d kill more Israelis by loading their rockets with peanut dust). I doubt that the average person knows the difference between Hamas and Palestinians. Or cares. There are a lot of more pressing problems in the world. If you don’t believe that the historic and current use of sporadic vengeance weapons being launched into Israel is going to help Hamas destroy Israel, you might want to pass your concerns along to Hamas. Maybe they’ll listen to you and stop the rocket attacks against Israel? The Israelis will then stop their current self-defense air-strikes and Whack-a-Mole tunnel hunt. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/542 "2014-07-21T16:58:53Z")
Which is worse: Using human shields, or killing human shields? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/543 "2014-07-21T17:05:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Which is worse: Using human shields, or killing human shields? Without a doubt, using human shields. Because that is always and without exception an act of evil (yes, that is true when Israeli soldiers do it, as they on occasion do). Whether killing human shields is justified depends on circumstances - that is, whether such killing is necessary and proportional response to a legitimate military aim. To give an example - say a combatant chains civilians to a howitzer that they then use to bombard your city. Is their chaining of civilians to the howitzer “worse” than your blowing the howitzer up, chained civilians and all? I would say without hesitation “yes”. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/544 "2014-07-21T17:22:07Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Your odd focus on capitalization simply indicates an ignorance of the printing protocols of the time. A number of printers followed the German convention of capitalizing all nouns. **Since the word “united” is an adjective** , it did not get capitalized in all documents. > > The Articles of Confederation, written the same summer as the Declaration of Independence, lists as Article 1: > The ƒtyle of this confederacy ƒhall be The UNITED STATES of AMERICA. > > That there was a certain amount of internal bickering and a host of opinions regarding just what the new country entailed is true. However, the disparate states agreed to wage war together, negotiate treaties together, and to be recognized by a single flag. > > Quibbling that it was not one nation prior to the ratification of the Constitution is silly. France did not loan money to thirteen colonies, but to a nation. Britain did not negotiate the Treaty of Paris, (in which this country is identified as "the UNITED STATES of AMERICA), with thirteen colonies, but with one nation. Separate treaties at the Peace of Paris were negotiated between Britain and France, Spain, and the Netherlands. Each single nation–including the United States–negotiated one treaty apiece. In turn, the thirteen states did not separately ratify that treaty, which was ratified by the Continental Congress for the nation. (bold and underline added) Odd focus? The word “united” is the adjective. It’s more that a simple issue of capitalization but using the German protocol, the representatives of the 13 colonies used “United Colonies” and “States of America” as the nouns, the chosen names of the 13 united Colonies. Using the same protocol, “The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America”, suggests that the 13 States of America were united in a common cause. In 1776. The Articles of Confederation were agreed to by Congress Nov 15, 1777 and ratified Mar 1, 1781. It mentions “the United States of America” as well as “the united States in congress assembled”. > **[The Articles of Confederation – The U.S. Constitution Online –...](https://www.usconstitution.net/articles-html/)** > > Also see the Constitutional Topics Page for this document, a comparison of the Articles and the Constitution, and a table with demographic data for the signers of the Articles. Images of the Articles are available. Contents Preamble Article I – Style... The Treaty of Paris was signed in 1783 and ratified in 1784. Ratified by the appointed representatives of the 13 colonies united. Since the 13 Colonies had not yet created a central government to represent them, the 13 governments still governed the 13 States. There was no need for the 13 states to separately ratify the treaty because the representatives attending the Continental Congress had been authorized to act for the individual Colonies in this matter. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/545 "2014-07-21T17:29:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Which is worse: Using human shields, or killing human shields? Using human shields, of course. Kidnapping, capturing, forcing people to stand in front of you (not “you” **BrainGlutton** ) while you continue to endanger the lives of others means that you are responsible for their deaths as well as your own. ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/546 "2014-07-21T17:32:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If it weren’t for the supreme court, there would be mountain of other laws that are even more discriminatory and I would suggest that without the Israeli supreme court, Israel would in fact look a lot like South african apartheid. It seems to be the will of a few jurists that protect the Israeli arabs and the Palestinians from the “will of the people” Without the Supreme Court, there’s a fair chance parts of AMERICA would still look like South African Apartheid. The fact that the judiciary defends minority rights–_and that the nation listens_–is a sign that Israel places a high value on civility and decency (even if they do not always live up to their own standards) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/547 "2014-07-21T18:26:47Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Actually, you compared two issues, one of which was settlement activity. > > And I gave the answer: many of us do agree that settlement activity is wrong, but we do not believe that Israel’s war against Hamas is wrong, because it was provoked by Hamas, which made initial attacks. > > Neither side is all good or all bad. Each issue can be addressed on its own merits, without such linkage. > > I think Israeli settlement activity in the occupied territories should be stopped. I also think that firing rockets into Israel from Gaza is a really piss-poor way of expressing opposition to it. I think they are inextricably linked. You can’t say that history begins when Hamas does something bad. We could just as easily say that history started when Israel invaded Gaza. Hamas’ actions do not exist in a vaccuum. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/548 "2014-07-21T18:32:11Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Then why did you refer to one side as the “anti-Zionist side”. Modern day Zionists support the idea that the Jews are a nation deserving a state of their own in the land where the Jewish people came into existence. Namely Israel. > > “Anti-Zionists” by contrast don’t believe Israel should be allowed to exist and that the Jews don’t deserve a state of their own. > > So, why did you use such a phrase if you’re now saying the “anti-Zionist side” doesn’t support the elimination of the State of Israel? I was looking for an opposite to “pro-Israel” I am bothered by all the bullshit zionists goes through to maintain a Jewish majority in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/549 "2014-07-21T18:34:42Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You think there is “settlement activity” in Gaza? You think there isn’t settlement activity anywhere? Or are you saying that Palestinians outside the west bank don’t really care about settlement activity in the west bank?:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/550 "2014-07-21T18:36:28Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Palestinians elected Hamas to govern in a “free and fair” election. Perhaps Hamas was the least despicable option available on the ballot – that tells us something very sad about Palestinian “democracy.” > > The apparent belief that Israel needs to restrain itself until Israeli deaths catch up with Palestinian deaths is too bizarre for me to understand. Particularly since Hamas is happy to maximize its civilian deaths when Israel targets military sites; such sacrifice is the best use Hamas (whose leaders are safely sequestered in Qatar) finds for the fools that elected it. I never said that. Israel has every right to retaliate as does Hamas. In fact I have said that Israel’s civilian casualty ratio looks OK. IIRC Hamas has not permitted another election since they took power. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/551 "2014-07-21T18:40:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Don;t you think it is a bit of a stretch saying that using your children as human shields is the equivalent of not automatically granting citizenship upon marriage? > > Regards, > Shodan You said “Israel doesn’t treat all Palestinians like shit because of what Hamas does.” I was giving you one example of how Israel does in fact treat Palestinians like shit because of what Hamas does. It is one example out of many and if it wasn’t for the Israeli supreme court, Israel would be an apartheid state. But they are not an absolute bar to mistreatment of Palestinians and non-Jewish Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/552 "2014-07-21T18:57:12Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Israel does many things that are worthy of criticism, but I don’t think this particular cite is a good example. > > From your cite: > > The notion, I take it, is that terrorists were using the"family reuinification via marriage to an Israeli citizen" mechanism to gain entry to Israel, then kill people. So a law was passed that residents of certain countries were now ineligible (allegedly on a temporary basis) for such citizenship. > > You will note that this is effectively a limit on immigration, alleged to be in place as a direct result of some physical danger from certain countries. Then why isn’t Egypt on the list? Are Egyptians much friendlier to the state of Israel than Pakistanis? It seems like this law has the happy unintended side effect of reducing the growth rate of the arab population in Israel ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/553 "2014-07-21T19:05:03Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I doubt that the average person knows the difference between Hamas and Palestinians. Or cares. There are a lot of more pressing problems in the world. > > If you don’t believe that the historic and current use of sporadic vengeance weapons being launched into Israel is going to help Hamas destroy Israel, you might want to pass your concerns along to Hamas. Maybe they’ll listen to you > > and stop the rocket attacks against Israel? > > The Israelis will then stop their current self-defense air-strikes and Whack-a-Mole tunnel hunt. But I would have thought that Israel would know the difference between the two. The Palestinians don’t listen to me. If I could get the Palestinians do what I wanted, I would have every Palestinian try to walk into Israel as the world watched to see what the IDF would do to millions of Palestinians men, women and children. Then I’d have everyone walk back to the west bank and gaza and then do it all over the next day and the next until the borders became meaningless or the IDF opened fire on unarmed civilians ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/554 "2014-07-21T19:07:28Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > Without the Supreme Court, there’s a fair chance parts of AMERICA would still look like South African Apartheid. The fact that the judiciary defends minority rights–_and that the nation listens_–is a sign that Israel places a high value on civility and decency (even if they do not always live up to their own standards) I don’t think that’s true. America was ready for change when we got rid of segregation. We weren’t passing racist laws at the federal level and the nation was forcing its will on a racist subset. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/555 "2014-07-21T19:08:18Z")
Damuri Ajashi: > [@](#): > > Then why isn’t Egypt on the list? > > Are Egyptians much friendlier to the state of Israel than Pakistanis? Yes. Egypt has a peace treaty and full diplomatic relations with Israel and recognizes the State of Israel, and Pakistan has none of those three. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/556 "2014-07-21T19:26:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Then why isn’t Egypt on the list? > > Are Egyptians much friendlier to the state of Israel than Pakistanis? > > It seems like this law has the happy unintended side effect of reducing the growth rate of the arab population in Israel Are you saying that Egyptians are not Arabs? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/557 "2014-07-21T19:36:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Then why isn’t Egypt on the list? > > Are Egyptians much friendlier to the state of Israel than Pakistanis? > > It seems like this law has the happy unintended side effect of reducing the growth rate of the arab population in Israel Not sure what your point is. First, yes, Egyptians _are_ friendlier - Egypt has a peace treaty with Israel, for one. Second, Egypt is an Arab country–or at least, moreso than (say) Pakistan (yes, I know that Egyptians sometimes dispute exactly how “Arab” they are). It would be a passing strange way to keep “Arabs” out of the country, to allow in Egyptians (and Jordanians!) but not Pakistanis. The countries listed in your cite not all are Arab: > [@](#): > > Iran, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Libya, Sudan, Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, and areas governed by the Palestinian Authority Of the 9 countries listed, three are not “Arab” - namely, Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. [I throw in Libya as “Arab” even though it is a mix of berber and arab - as I am throwing in Egypt as “Arab”). Yet several Arab countries are not on the list - such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, the gulf states, and most notably, Jordan. So if the accusation is that these measures are aimed at “Arabs”, they are going about it in a very strange manner. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/558 "2014-07-21T19:41:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Are you saying that Egyptians are not Arabs? Hell, is he saying that Israeli Arabs can’t get busy with other Israeli Arabs and instead their population has to dwindle without outside marriage?? 😛 There have been a lot of WTF moments with Damuri Ajashi in this thread, but that one was worth a chuckle considering that the number of Israelis who self identify as Arab have gone up over time (though their percentage of the population as a whole has gone down, mostly because of Jewish immigration). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/559 "2014-07-21T19:54:10Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Then why isn’t Egypt on the list? > > Are Egyptians much friendlier to the state of Israel than Pakistanis? Ummm… Yes. You’ve heard of Anwar Sadat, the Camp David Accords and the last 35 years haven’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/560 "2014-07-21T20:27:02Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Damuri Ajashi: > > > [@](#): > > > > Then why isn’t Egypt on the list? > > > > Are Egyptians much friendlier to the state of Israel than Pakistanis? > > Yes. Egypt has a peace treaty and full diplomatic relations with Israel and recognizes the State of Israel, and Pakistan has none of those three. There is a certain level of ignorance about a topic under discussion that is understandable, and there is a point at which ignorance of basic facts becomes damning. Egypt was expelled from the [Arab League](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League) in 1979 for signing a peace treaty with Israel and recognizing its right to exist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=29)