# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/721 "2014-07-27T23:11:20Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > There just has to be a special circle of Hell reserved for Hamas. Their policy is plain: keep firing rockets at Israel, place children in harms way (close to rocket launch sites, for instance) and pray to their god that as many children as possible die or are horribly maimed when Israel defends itself. It’s win-win for Hamas, until the rest of the world call them out on their disgusting actions. But the rest of the world, of course, is far too busy blaming Israel. And so the cycle continues. Oh for Christ’s sake you can lay off the martyr shit. The U.S., Britain and Canada aren’t busy blaming Israel. A huge chunk of the middle east only pays lip service to “blaming” them. Unlike other countries in the region, they are shelling the shit out of a civilian population without even a whisper that maybe we should use military power to stop them. Poor poor Israel has to carry on with all this impotent handwringing. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/722 "2014-07-27T23:18:48Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Oh for Christ’s sake you can lay off the martyr shit. The U.S., Britain and Canada aren’t busy blaming Israel. A huge chunk of the middle east only pays lip service to “blaming” them.\*\* Unlike other countries in the region, they are shelling the shit out of a civilian population without even a whisper that maybe we should use military power to stop them. \*\*Poor poor Israel has to carry on with all this impotent handwringing. Sheesh. Are you saying that you think the US, the UK, and Canada should be using “military power” to force Israel to stop bombing Gaza? If so, how far does this go? Should the US and the UK have used military force against fellow NATO ally Turkey when they invaded the Kurdish region of Norther Iraq a few years ago? Should we now use “military power” against Turkey to make them end the occupation of Northern Cyprus and evacuate the Turkish settlers from there as well. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I can’t remember a single thread on SDMB criticizing Turkey’s invasion, occupation, ethnically cleansing and settling of Northern Cyprus. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/723 "2014-07-27T23:40:03Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Are you saying that you think the US, the UK, and Canada should be using “military power” to force Israel to stop bombing Gaza? > > If so, how far does this go? > > Should the US and the UK have used military force against fellow NATO ally Turkey when they invaded the Kurdish region of Norther Iraq a few years ago? > > Should we now use “military power” against Turkey to make them end the occupation of Northern Cyprus and evacuate the Turkish settlers from there as well. > > Perhaps I’m wrong, but I can’t remember a single thread on SDMB criticizing Turkey’s invasion, occupation, ethnically cleansing and settling of Northern Cyprus. Should we use military power against Syria in their civil war? Should we have used military power to aid Libyan rebels? Should we make strikes to stop Iran’s nuclear program? Because all those were suggested d and/or done. My point was a simple one. There is not a whisper of a hint that we should do that against Israel. So “everyone” can fucking “blame” them to kingdom come. They have carte Blanche. So don’t cry about the handwringing. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/724 "2014-07-28T00:20:16Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Should we use military power against Syria in their civil war? Should we have used military power to aid Libyan rebels? Should we make strikes to stop Iran’s nuclear program? Because all those were suggested d and/or done. My point was a simple one. There is not a whisper of a hint that we should do that against Israel. So “everyone” can fucking “blame” them to kingdom come. They have carte Blanche. So don’t cry about the handwringing. There’s not a whisper of a hint that the West should do something that you’re whispering and hinting they should do? I sure hope that if my country gets involved in this mess (which I sincerely hope we don’t) that it’s at least on the right side. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/725 "2014-07-28T00:51:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The Israelis were able to disarm and disband the Irgun and Lehi. The Jordanians disarmed the PLO. > > If there is a moderate faction within the Palestinian Territories more popular than Hamas, shouldn’t they be able to? Probably not; a moderate faction is probably not as well-armed. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/726 "2014-07-28T01:08:16Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > . . . Perhaps I’m wrong, but I can’t remember a single thread on SDMB criticizing Turkey’s invasion, occupation, ethnically cleansing and settling of Northern Cyprus. I wasn’t here at the time, but I would have spoken in condemnation. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/727 "2014-07-28T06:24:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > If there is a moderate faction within the Palestinian Territories more popular than Hamas, shouldn’t they be able to? Funnily enough support for moderate groups in Palestine gets even slimmer when Israel kills a thousand civilians. You’ll be amazed to hear that for some reason, Palestinians are probably minded to believe that Hamas is right, and Israel is out to get them. Israel faces no credible threat. They could take the moral high ground here, show restraint, and stop replying to ineffectual attempts with an airstrike and land campaign that will inevitably result in civilian deaths. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/728 "2014-07-28T06:27:32Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Funnily enough support for moderate groups in Palestine gets even slimmer when Israel kills a thousand civilians. You’ll be amazed to hear that for some reason, Palestinians are probably minded to believe that Hamas is right, and Israel is out to get them. > > Israel faces no credible threat. They could take the moral high ground here, show restraint, and stop replying to ineffectual attempts with an airstrike and land campaign that will inevitably result in civilian deaths. Israel is a democracy. In fact, it is a parliamentary democracy, so the government can fall any time. Any Israeli government that adopted the policy of “let them kill/injure us, we will not respond” will fall within days of doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/729 "2014-07-28T06:41:45Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Israel is a democracy. In fact, it is a parliamentary democracy, so the government can fall any time. Any Israeli government that adopted the policy of “let them kill/injure us, we will not respond” will fall within days of doing so. Which has nothing to do with the morality of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/730 "2014-07-28T06:43:41Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Which has nothing to do with the morality of the situation. It is not “moral” for a government to allow its citizens to get killed or injured with impunity. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/731 "2014-07-28T06:46:04Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I think he’s looking for a cite that the majority of Palestinians in the area in 1948 were born there. OK, that makes more sense. It seems clear that there was arab immigration into Palestine but all the numbers (even by some folks who seem pretty pro-Israel) seem to peg the number at below 50% of the population being immigrants. [The Smoking Gun: Arab Immigration into Palestine, 1922-1931 - Middle East Forum](http://www.meforum.org/522/the-smoking-gun-arab-immigration-into-palestine) (I used the search term immigra and I saw stuff like 10% immigration between 1922 and 1931). The immigrant Jewish population in 1948 was much much higher. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/732 "2014-07-28T06:53:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It is not “moral” for a government to allow its citizens to get killed or injured with impunity. Israel’s response has not stopped the threat. Hamas stepped up their ineffectual rocket strikes in response, and still the actual risk to Israel’s civilians is negligible. But their response has killed a thousand civilians, and they knew well what they were doing. In short, they have increased the risk to their own civilians (but still to a point that barely registers, such is the gulf in strengths between Hamas and Israel) with a course of action that has killed over a thousand civilians. That is immoral. Taking the high ground, accepting a tiny risk to yourself rather than killing the innocent, is moral. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/733 "2014-07-28T07:08:00Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Israel’s response has not stopped the threat. Not yet. But the rocket arsenal is reduced 60% to 70% so far, the tunnels are being destroyed and the rocket manufacturers are being blown up. And it’s not over yet. So don’t despair - the threat is being eliminated. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/734 "2014-07-28T07:13:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > OK, that makes more sense. It seems clear that there was arab immigration into Palestine but all the numbers (even by some folks who seem pretty pro-Israel) seem to peg the number at below 50% of the population being immigrants. “The precise magnitude of Arab immigration into and within Palestine is, as Bachi noted, unknown. Lack of completeness in Ottoman registration lists and British Mandatory censuses, and the immeasurable illegal, unreported, and undetected immigration during both periods make any estimate a bold venture into creative analysis. In most cases, those venturing into the realm of Palestinian demography—or other demographic analyses based on very crude data—acknowledge its limitations and the tentativeness of the conclusions that may be drawn.” So - no “pegging” the number. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/735 "2014-07-28T07:23:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Not yet. But the rocket arsenal is reduced 60% to 70% so far, the tunnels are being destroyed and the rocket manufacturers are being blown up. And it’s not over yet. So don’t despair - the threat is being eliminated. The only threat that really exists is not posed by Hamas rockets, and as far as I can see it has not reduced at all for those who are actually being killed. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/736 "2014-07-28T07:34:54Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Funnily enough support for moderate groups in Palestine gets even slimmer when Israel kills a thousand civilians. Ok, I’ll bite. Please give me your definition of what a Palestinian group would have to be to be considered “moderate” and also list some “moderate” Palestinian groups that you suggest have been hurt by the recent measures of the Israeli government? Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/737 "2014-07-28T08:07:18Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Please give me your definition of what a Palestinian group would have to be to be considered “moderate” and also list some “moderate” Palestinian groups that you suggest have been hurt by the recent measures of the Israeli government? I’d suggest a non-militant group which does not call for an end to Israel (although opposition to further expansion would be a perfectly valid opinion) would be moderate. The Palestinian People’s Party, for example. And I’d imagine any group with a moderate stance will see decreased support after the current bombing campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/738 "2014-07-28T08:19:24Z")
Oh, and can I just pre-emptively note that I’m moving house today, so will probably not be back online for 24 hours to respond to any replies/questions/rebuttals. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/739 "2014-07-28T09:08:54Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > There’s not a whisper of a hint that the West should do something that you’re whispering and hinting they should do? > > I sure hope that if my country gets involved in this mess (which I sincerely hope we don’t) that it’s at least on the right side. Could your delicate sensibilities deal with economic sanctions? Just kidding. No one has even whispered a hint of that either. My point wasn’t that we _should_ get involved militarily. Just pointing out that Israel is not being put under any meaningful pressure to stop so don’t cry about “everyone blaming” them. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/740 "2014-07-28T10:54:11Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Oh for Christ’s sake you can lay off the martyr shit. The U.S., Britain and Canada aren’t busy blaming Israel. A huge chunk of the middle east only pays lip service to “blaming” them. Unlike other countries in the region, they are shelling the shit out of a civilian population without even a whisper that maybe we should use military power to stop them. Poor poor Israel has to carry on with all this impotent handwringing. Sheesh. Whereas Hamas, of course, are not shelling the shit out of anyone. Their rockets are merely designed as firework displays to amuse the children. Israel has no right at all to use force to prevent such harmless fun. Your evident bias is clearly ingrained. Were you perhaps bitten by an Israeli as a child? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=38)