# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/801 "2014-07-29T15:51:19Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Oh, and it looks like another hundred deaths in Gaza today. Hamas can chose to stop launching rockets at any time. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/802 "2014-07-29T15:58:48Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > And is there a limit to the actions you can take in the name of self defence? Yes - the actions, insofar as they risk civilian lives, must be proportinate to a legitimate military objective. One cannot simply indiscriminately massacre civilians in order to ‘break the will’ of the enemy population to continue the fight. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/803 "2014-07-29T16:00:09Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The bottom line is that you WILL stop throwing rocks at me. You may come to your senses, get tired, bored, run out of rocks, your mom may stop you, the police may stop you, or I will stop you. There are many possible options. But you will stop throwing rocks at me or become unable to throw rocks at me. > > (All characters appearing in this post are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.) So keeping with the purely fictional, hypothetical situation here…is one of those possible options killing my family and my neighbors? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/804 "2014-07-29T16:07:52Z")
> [@andros](#): > > So keeping with the purely fictional, hypothetical situation here…is one of those possible options killing my family and my neighbors? Are your family and friends hiding you, bringing you additional rocks, or forming a human shield between us rock-throwers so I can’t damage your rock throwing abilities? If the answer is yes, then your family and neighbors are, more-than-likely, going to be hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/805 "2014-07-29T16:12:57Z")
> [@andros](#): > > So keeping with the purely fictional, hypothetical situation here…is one of those possible options killing my family and my neighbors? Ultimately, if that is what it takes to stop your attacks on me, and you are hiding behind them, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/806 "2014-07-29T16:50:16Z")
[http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180730/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed#undefined](http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180730/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed#undefined) Hamas obviously has no interest in having a photo-layout of one of its command bunkers beneath Shifa Hospital splashed on the front pages of newspapers. After all, such pictures would show that the organization uses the sick and wounded of Gaza as human shields while launching missiles against Israeli civilians. What Hamas wants is for reporters to use very different pictures from Shifa—namely, photos of Palestinians killed and wounded by Israelis, which make Palestinians look like innocent victims of wanton Israeli brutality. To that end, the rules of reporting from Shifa Hospital are easy for any newbie reporter to understand: No pictures of members of Hamas with their weapons inside the hospital, and don’t go anywhere near the bunkers, or the operating rooms where members of Hamas are treated. While reporters can meet with members of Hamas inside the hospital—because it’s obviously convenient for everyone—they are not allowed to take pictures. Reporters inside Gaza who are risking their lives to bring the world whatever news they can should hardly be blamed for obeying Hamas’s media rules, which the organization has helpfully written down in case anyone has doubts about what they are permitted to show. … Reporters who bravely or foolishly violate Hamas’ rules even on their social media accounts can be seen to repent with such alacrity that it’s not difficult to imagine how scared and dependent they are. Nick Casey of the Wall Street Journal, for example, tweeted that “You have to wonder w the shelling how patients at Shifa hospital feel as Hamas uses it as a safe place to see media.” Casey then quickly deleted his tweet, which didn’t save him from being put on a list of journalists who “lie/fabricate info for Israel” and “must be sued” – a threat which is surely the least of Casey’s fears. Last week, French-Palestinian journalist Radjaa Abu Dagg was summoned to Shifa by Hamas and interrogated. He wrote about the experience of “attempted intimidation” for Liberation—and then quickly had the paper take down the article. … **…reporting only the news that Hamas deems fit to print from Shifa Hospital isn’t actually reporting at all: It’s propaganda.** ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/807 "2014-07-29T17:51:52Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Are your family and friends hiding you, bringing you additional rocks, or forming a human shield between us rock-throwers so I can’t damage your rock throwing abilities? If the answer is yes, then your family and neighbors are, more-than-likely, going to be hurt. Or perhaps one of their neighbors bring them something far more dangerous than rocks. Something with a blast radius of miles instead of feet. I think Hamas (and indeed the entire Palestinian people) suffers from the fact that Israel will never make the painful concessions necessary for a lasting peace (see, right of return/restitution) with a weak enemy. They cannot become strong while they fight and they cannot sit idle for fear of some other group taking taking their place. So they are doomed to perpetual weakness and will therefore never get what they need for peace and Israel will never feel the need to give it to them. BUT if someone gives them something more than rocks to throw, Israel might suddenly feel that peace is worth the the right of return and restitution. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/808 "2014-07-29T18:04:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Or perhaps one of their neighbors bring them something far more dangerous than rocks. Something with a blast radius of miles instead of feet. > > I think Hamas (and indeed the entire Palestinian people) suffers from the fact that Israel will never make the painful concessions necessary for a lasting peace (see, right of return/restitution) with a weak enemy. They cannot become strong while they fight and they cannot sit idle for fear of some other group taking taking their place. So they are doomed to perpetual weakness and will therefore never get what they need for peace and Israel will never feel the need to give it to them. BUT if someone gives them something more than rocks to throw, Israel might suddenly feel that peace is worth the the right of return and restitution. Hamas wants the total destruction of Israel. They won’t admit that Israel has a right to exist. If someone gives the Palestinians something bigger and more deadly, Hamas will use it. Israel’s “painful concession” to Hamas would be very, very painful. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/809 "2014-07-29T18:04:57Z")
No, the Palestinians suffer from the fact that Hamas doesn’t want peace and will not negotiate in good faith. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/810 "2014-07-29T18:11:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think Hamas (and indeed the entire Palestinian people) suffers from the fact that Israel will never make the painful concessions necessary for a lasting peace (see, right of return/restitution) . Why? Why is the right of return/restitution necessary for a lasting peace? ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/811 "2014-07-29T18:15:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180730/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed#undefined](http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180730/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed#undefined) The Israelis’ propaganda wing, headed by Frank Luntz, needs to get its story straight. They’re both claiming that they didn’t attack the Shifa hospital, and that the hospital was hosting a fictitious bunker. But Luntz made his name as a Republican propagandist, so he’s used to feeding shit to the gullible. Meanwhile the Israelis have destroyed the only electrical generating plant in Gaza and have announced the need for a buffer zone, consisting of 44% of the Gaza Strip, which they are cleansing of its entire population even now. All in self defence, of course, like the raids to retrieve the children they knew were dead, and the air strikes against rockets that hadn’t been launched yet. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/812 "2014-07-29T18:20:24Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > air strikes against rockets that hadn’t been launched yet. Best time to launch an air strike, seems to me. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/813 "2014-07-29T18:42:54Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > …Meanwhile the Israelis have destroyed the only electrical generating plant in Gaza and have announced the need for a buffer zone, consisting of 44% of the Gaza Strip, which they are cleansing of its entire population even now. > > All in self defence, of course, like the raids to retrieve the children they knew were dead, and the air strikes against rockets that hadn’t been launched yet. (post shortened) Hamas can chose to stop launching it’s vengeance weapons into Israel. Or not. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/814 "2014-07-29T18:50:38Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The bottom line is that you WILL stop throwing rocks at me. You may come to your senses, get tired, bored, run out of rocks, your mom may stop you, the police may stop you, or I will stop you. There are many possible options. But you will stop throwing rocks at me or become unable to throw rocks at me. > > (All characters appearing in this post are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.) Fascinatingly insightful as this is, could you please try to answer the question. In your mind is self defence a blank cheque for any level of response? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/815 "2014-07-29T18:51:41Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > Hamas can chose to stop launching it’s vengeance weapons into Israel. Or not. And in the interim, Israel can kill as many Palestinians as they see fit? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/816 "2014-07-29T18:56:06Z")
How does killing Palestinians benefit Israel? I mean, why bother? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/817 "2014-07-29T19:03:31Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > How does killing Palestinians benefit Israel? I mean, why bother? I was rather hoping someone could explain that to me. Apparently their deaths were a good thing for the safety of Israel but I must admit I don’t see the logic myself. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/818 "2014-07-29T19:15:52Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > I was rather hoping someone could explain that to me. Apparently their deaths were a good thing for the safety of Israel but I must admit I don’t see the logic myself. The only reason I can see for Israel to kill Palestinians is to protect itself from attacks. Nothing else makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/819 "2014-07-29T19:23:06Z")
And a third set of rockets [found](http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/29/THIRD-Rocket-Arsenal-Found-At-UN-School-In-Gaza) in a UNRWA school. Wonder if they will return them to Hamas like they did the first two times? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/820 "2014-07-29T20:35:28Z")
> Out of #Gaza far from #Hamas retaliation: misfired rocket killed children yday in Shati. Witness: militants rushed and cleared debris Another proof that reporters in Gaza only report what Hamas wants them to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=42)