# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/841 "2014-07-29T22:33:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So, no, you cannot answer how you know how many civilians died? Quite correct. I do not have a precise number for the number of civilians have died. I can give you estimate from 600 - 1000, according to which news service I look at. I am basing the lower from your website, but must admit I’m extrapolating because they don’t actually give numbers, and their latest figures are 4 days ago. Once more, I offer to go with your figures. Please advise. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/842 "2014-07-29T22:48:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Civilians die in wars. Sometimes innocent civilians. Pick a war that you think was justified, then tell me what the proportion of combatants killed vs “innocent civilians” killed was on the losing side. Sure thing. World War Two. German soldiers killed: 4.3 million (lowest figure on Wikipedia). Civilians killed: 3.5 million (highest figure on Wikipedia). So there you go, giving you the very best ratio I can from WW2, the ratio was lower than 1 civilian to 1 combatant. Not sure how to define “innocent civilians”, but then again I doubt you do either. Next round of sophistry please. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/843 "2014-07-29T22:53:46Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Sorry, but I’m honestly not sure I follow. Are you arguing that they would not do it unless there was a sensible reason? And as such, if they do it, there’ must be a sensible reason? > > I would dearly love to believe there was a good justification for the deaths of the civilians caught up in this. Not the Hamas militants, obviously. Screw them, they can die by the sword, they made their choices. > > I’m talking purely about the civilians who died. I don’t see the reason, the sense. I can see a score of reason why these deaths actually could increase the risk against Israel. That’s not hard, you can easily conjecture the hackneyed orphan dedicating their life to vengeance for the death of their parents (perhaps without cape or batcave). More importantly though, what about the really apparent threats, such as ISIS or other resourced and trained outfit using the leverage of local outrage to establish a local presence and really put a threat right within strike range of Israel. > > That’s what I don’t understand. Why did nearly a thousand civilians have to die, when all it seems to do is increase the threat to Israel. Please, someone, explain this. Because it’s war, and that’s how war’s been fought for the past century. The IDF is fighting a house-to-house battle against a trained enemy, entrenched in friendly terrain, and it hasn’t been a cakewalk, either - over 50 Israeli soldiers have been killed so far, and hundreds more have been wounded, in some of the fiercest combat the Israeli army has seen in literally decades. How could there \*not \*be civilian casualties? It’s not all hyper-intelligent GPS-guided “surgical” missiles, you know (which are overrated anyway). Most of what a modern army uses today is still big, dumb bombs and rockets. It’s nasty, but the troops have to stay alive to finish the job. As to whether it will create a new generation of Palestinians who hate Israel… yeah, it probably will. That’s something we have to take into account. Still, I’m sorry to say that it’s really hard to imagine the Palestinians hating us even more than they hate us now, so after a certain point it’s just a matter of diminishing returns. Kill them, don’t kill them, they’ll still hate us for taking their land. (Oh, and the Israeli intelligence establishment has been keeping close track of ISIS and other “global jihad” elements - as they’re called here - in Gaza; why do you think many Israelis object to taking down Hamas? We know they could be replaced by something worse. That’s why, IMHO, they need to be beaten badly enough to start fighting, but not so badly that they’ll lose control of the Strip,at least for the meantime.) ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/844 "2014-07-29T22:57:40Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Because it’s war, and that’s how war’s been fought for the past century. Israel is killing hundreds of civilians in Palestine because it’s war, and that’s how it’s been for a hundred years? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/845 "2014-07-29T23:01:32Z")
And sorry to ask again, but is there a death counter that the “Israel is just defending itself” camp would be happy to use? Because let’s be honest, I’m not really going to need to quibble over numbers am I, I just have to wait. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/846 "2014-07-29T23:04:18Z")
Do you know a better way to fight a war? (And if you say “Yes - by not fighting one”, I’m going to say “Tell that to Hamas”. I just want to keep things brief, as it’s way past my bedtime). Edit: > [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > And sorry to ask again, but is there a death counter that the “Israel is just defending itself” camp would be happy to use? Because let’s be honest, I’m not really going to need to quibble over numbers am I, I just have to wait. Yeah - 54 Israeli dead. That’s our counter. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/847 "2014-07-29T23:05:27Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Quite correct. I do not have a precise number for the number of civilians have died. I can give you estimate from 600 - 1000, according to which news service I look at. No, you’re not getting the number from “news services”. You’re getting the number from Hamas. The “news services” report to you what Hamas tells them. As you can imagine, Hamas is interested in having as many civilian casualties vs combatant casualties as possible. > [@](#): > > Once more, I offer to go with your figures. Please advise. Let’s look at previous Gaza conflict. [Casualties of the Gaza War - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_War) 1166 total dead 709 combatants Now, as I said in my other post, can you show me another war that you consider “justified” where combatant to civilian ratio is higher than this one. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/848 "2014-07-29T23:08:12Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > So you believe every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas’ attacks on Israel? From what source did you get your number of civilian casualties? Hamas? CNN, which reported the numbers given to them by Hamas? Reuters, which reported the numbers given to them by Hamas? Hamas? Are there any civilian casualties among the Palestinians? Are any of them trying to stop the launching of vengeance weapons into Israel? Had any of these civilian casualties been involved in storing, carrying, setting up, aiming, or launching vengeance weapons into Israel the day/week/month/year before they were killed? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/849 "2014-07-29T23:12:22Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Are there any civilian casualties among the Palestinians? Are any of them trying to stop the launching of vengeance weapons into Israel? Had any of these civilian casualties been involved in storing, carrying, setting up, aiming, or launching vengeance weapons into Israel the day/week/month/year before they were killed? Actually, [yesterday, in Shajaiya,](http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/29/Report-Hamas-Killed-20-Palestinian-Anti-War-Protestors-in-Gaza) some Palestinians came out to protest against the war, and Hamas rounded twenty of them up and shot them in the street. Wonder if those twenty will be included in the “innocent civilians killed by Israel” number. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/850 "2014-07-29T23:16:37Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Do you know a better way to fight a war? You’re not fighting a war. War implies vaguely comparable sides. Hamas could let off every rocket it has tomorrow, and Israel would be hardly scratched. Whereas, as the last few days has made incredibly clear, Israel can rip the entire Palestine apart with losses between hundred or thousands. You outgun them so entirely it’s like Tyson fighting a toddler. You’re engaged in a strategic action, at best. I have to ask from a strategic point of view if killing how ever many hundred civilians really serves your long term objectives. And as for “54 Israeli dead. That’s our counter”. Are you really trying to say you don’t count civilian deaths for Palestinians? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/851 "2014-07-29T23:22:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Actually, [yesterday, in Shajaiya,](http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/29/Report-Hamas-Killed-20-Palestinian-Anti-War-Protestors-in-Gaza) some Palestinians came out to protest against the war, and Hamas rounded twenty of them up and shot them in the street. Wonder if those twenty will be included in the “innocent civilians killed by Israel” number. I wonder how **Gary Kumquat** will classify them? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/852 "2014-07-29T23:24:21Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > You’re not fighting a war. War implies vaguely comparable sides. Hamas could let off every rocket it has tomorrow, and Israel would be hardly scratched. Whereas, as the last few days has made incredibly clear, Israel can rip the entire Palestine apart with losses between hundred or thousands. You outgun them so entirely it’s like Tyson fighting a toddler. > > You’re engaged in a strategic action, at best. I have to ask from a strategic point of view if killing how ever many hundred civilians really serves your long term objectives. > > And as for “54 Israeli dead. That’s our counter”. Are you really trying to say you don’t count civilian deaths for Palestinians? So what exactly should Israel do? Let’s be straightforward. Absorb rocket attacks (with Iron Dome), refrain from retaliation, and go about life like nothing’s happening? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/853 "2014-07-29T23:26:11Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Sure thing. World War Two. > > German soldiers killed: 4.3 million (lowest figure on Wikipedia). Civilians killed: 3.5 million (highest figure on Wikipedia). > > So there you go, giving you the very best ratio I can from WW2, the ratio was lower than 1 civilian to 1 combatant. Not sure how to define “innocent civilians”, but then again I doubt you do either. Not really comparable, since more than half of that war was fought outside of Germany, with no German civilians in danger. But you know what - ok. So “lower than 1 to 1” is your criteria? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/854 "2014-07-29T23:37:16Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I wonder how **Gary Kumquat** will classify them? Because honestly, anything I’ve said suggests I would view people killed by Hamas as victims of Israeli action. Try harder, please. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/855 "2014-07-29T23:42:00Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Because honestly, anything I’ve said suggests I would view people killed by Hamas as victims of Israeli action. > > Try harder, please. Question is, how would you know? Your news sources get their numbers from Hamas and they definitely won’t tell you. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/856 "2014-07-29T23:43:10Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > You’re not fighting a war. War implies vaguely comparable sides. I’m not sure what could possibly give you that ridiculous idea. Tyson fighting a toddler is still a fight, just a very one sided one. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/857 "2014-07-29T23:45:08Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I wonder how **Gary Kumquat** will classify them? You know, just because you disagree with him there’s no need to imply he’s distorting obvious facts. But i guess I shouldn’t expect much from a guy who keeps saying “vengeance rockets”. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/858 "2014-07-29T23:54:44Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So what exactly should Israel do? Let’s be straightforward. > Absorb rocket attacks (with Iron Dome), refrain from retaliation, and go about life like nothing’s happening? If I were to be ridiculously callous the most relevant thing I could compare this to is not a war, but a PR campaign on a worldwide stage, and Israel are losing it by playing Hamas at their own game. Take the moral high ground, track every rocket attack from Gaza and broadcast it, but forego retaliation strikes stating loss of innocent civilian life is unacceptable. Go for heart and mind campaigns such as welfare and health programs. In short, completely undermine the fundamental premise of Hamas, that Israel is an evil threat to the people of Palestine that must be resisted. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/859 "2014-07-29T23:57:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Question is, how would you know? Your news sources get their numbers from Hamas and they definitely won’t tell you. A quick check shows I’ve now asked you four times for a source you will accept as reasonable, but you keep refusing to give one. Once more then. You keep rejecting any figures I give as Hamas sourced. So please, which death counter do you suggest. And I must insist, one with numbers rather than images of graphs ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/860 "2014-07-30T00:06:57Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > A quick check shows I’ve now asked you four times for a source you will accept as reasonable, but you keep refusing to give one. While the action is going on, there is no source that can give you figures. After, IDF is pretty good at it. I gave you the figures from that source from the previous engagement. The number of combatants killed that the IDF gave then was in fact later confirmed by the Hamas spokesman. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=44)