# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/861 "2014-07-30T00:10:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > While the action is going on, there is no source that can give you figures. After, IDF is pretty good at it. I gave you the figures from that source from the previous engagement. I’m sorry, but I have not seen any source from you, IDF or otherwise, for fatalities to date. Could you please repost it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/862 "2014-07-30T00:18:52Z")
Here’s some more “innocent civilians killed by Israel”: > **[Report: Hamas Used Ceasefire to Execute 25 Gazans Accused of Treachery,...](http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/27/report-hamas-used-ceasefire-to-execute-25-gazans-accused-of-treachery-blamed-israel-for-deaths/)** > > Hamas militants killed at least 25 Gazan civilians suspected of collaborating with Israel, World Net Daily reported, citing sources close to Hamas and the Islamic Jihad groups. The sources told WND that most of the extra-judicial killings of... Hamas militants killed at least 25 Gazan civilians suspected of collaborating with Israel, World Net Daily reported, citing sources close to Hamas and the Islamic Jihad groups. The sources told WND that most of the extra-judicial killings of suspected collaborators took place during a brief “humanitarian” cease-fire last Thursday. Hamas blamed the killings on Israel saying they took place four days earlier, in Shuja’iya, on Gaza’s northern border with Israel. The murdered Gazans were accused of leading Israeli troops to smuggling tunnels and providing intelligence on Hamas’ infrastructure inside Gazan cities, according to the sources. According to WND, the sources also said “the civilian suspects murdered by Hamas were publicly celebrated by Hamas as martyrs killed by the Jewish state.” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/863 "2014-07-30T00:19:52Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > I’m sorry, but I have not seen any source from you, IDF or otherwise, for fatalities to date. Could you please repost it. Which part of “while the action is going on, there is no source that can give you figures” was unclear? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/864 "2014-07-30T00:28:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Which part of “while the action is going on, there is no source that can give you figures” was unclear? So while you are happy to doubt any figures given by other sources, you are not prepared to put forward any of your own. How frightfully convenient! For example, you now get to prevaricate other any discussion on the death toll in Gaza as being inaccurate, without having to put forward any other numbers at all to use for discussion. Of course, that doesn’t prevent you from quoting Israellycool, because they don’t give any numbers either. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/865 "2014-07-30T00:30:39Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > So while you are happy to doubt any figures given by other sources, you are not prepared to put forward any of your own. It is impossible to get any reasonably correct figures while the action is going on. That’s a fact. Inconvenient fact, for you, but a fact. But - as I pointed out - it is possible to see the figures from the previous conflict in Gaza. Out of 1166 total dead Palestinians, 709 were combatants, as confirmed both by IDF and, later, by a Hamas source. There is no reason to think that in the current conflict the ratio would be much different. What makes you think that the ratio is different this time? After all, there were cries of “massacre of innocent civilians” and “genocide” back then as well. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/866 "2014-07-30T00:33:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It is impossible to get any reasonably correct figures while the action is going on. > > But - as I pointed out - it is possible to see the figures from the previous conflict in Gaza. Out of 1166 total dead Palestinians, 709 were combatants, as confirmed both by IDF and, later, by a Hamas source. There is no reason to think that in the current conflict the ratio would be much different. Now here’s a wonderful piece of reasoning. You won’t give numbers for the current deaths, but you will make claims based on previous incidents, without giving a cite for them either. And then you will claim, without any reasoning, that the numbers are comparable. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/867 "2014-07-30T00:35:21Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Now here’s a wonderful piece of reasoning. You won’t give numbers for the current deaths, but you will make claims based on previous incidents, without giving a cite for them either. I gave you the cite in the previous post. Would you like to go back and look for it or would you prefer I give it to you again? > [@](#): > > And then you will claim, without any reasoning, that the numbers are comparable. What would make you think the ratios would be different? Were the same two sides, on the same battlefield. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/868 "2014-07-30T00:39:48Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Go for heart and mind campaigns such as welfare and health programs. I suspect Hamas would prohibit Palestinians from participating in such programs. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/869 "2014-07-30T00:43:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I gave you the cite in the previous post. Would you like to go back and look for it or would you prefer I give it to you again? > What would make you think the ratios would be different? Were the same two sides, on the same battlefield. Yes, I would most certainly like specific quotes and links for deaths in Gaza in the current conflict, or failing that your links for previous incidents, and reasoning why you believe they accurately reflect the current event. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/870 "2014-07-30T00:44:50Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I suspect Hamas would prohibit Palestinians from participating in such programs. Which in turn could be presented by Israel as examples of the evils of Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/871 "2014-07-30T00:49:20Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Which in turn could be presented by Israel as examples of the evils of Hamas. And? They’ll still believe Israel’s more evil. Anyway, what do you expect - that Palestinians would rise up against Hamas and call for peace with Israel? A 7.62mm bullet probably awaits the first Palestinian to stand up and suggest it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/872 "2014-07-30T00:50:59Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > If I were to be ridiculously callous the most relevant thing I could compare this to is not a war, but a PR campaign on a worldwide stage, and Israel are losing it by playing Hamas at their own game. > > Take the moral high ground, track every rocket attack from Gaza and broadcast it, but forego retaliation strikes stating loss of innocent civilian life is unacceptable. Go for heart and mind campaigns such as welfare and health programs. In short, completely undermine the fundamental premise of Hamas, that Israel is an evil threat to the people of Palestine that must be resisted. You do realize what happens to “collaborators” in Gaza don’t you? Videotapes of the “confessions” and executions of them are extremely popular viewing in Gaza and the West Bank. If you think for two seconds that people who accepted such help wouldn’t be risking execution at the hands of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or PFLP gunmen you’re horribly naive. Beyond that, people would probably be told that taking those would either make them sick or sterilize them. The Occupied territories are notorious for such conspiracy theories. The last time I visited, we were warned about getting in ambulances alone because “the Jews” would “steal your organs”. I’m hardly a defender of Israel and find many of the arguments here remarkably unpersuasive, but you seem to be ignoring a lot of realities about the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/873 "2014-07-30T00:54:01Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Which in turn could be presented by Israel as examples of the evils of Hamas. Heh. So you think that slaughtering hundreds if not thousands of “collaborators”(I assume you’re familiar with what that means in Gaza) hasn’t undercut Hamas but you think the killing of more “collaborators” will? Please explain your reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/874 "2014-07-30T00:58:17Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > . . . I’m hardly a defender of Israel and find many of the arguments here remarkably unpersuasive, but you seem to be ignoring a lot of realities about the situation. I’m very much a defender of Israel…and find many of the arguments here unpersuasive. The argument I find the most persuasive is that no one can propose an alternative. If Israel is killing too many civilians…what should they do? Saying that “Israel should stop bombardments” is exactly as pointless as saying “Hamas should stop bombardments.” Well, yes. That’s what many of us want. And when cease-fire arrangements are proposed, Israel says, “Let’s talk” and Hamas says “No.” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/875 "2014-07-30T01:15:59Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Yes, I would most certainly like specific quotes and links for deaths in Gaza in the current conflict, or failing that your links for previous incidents, and reasoning why you believe they accurately reflect the current event. I guess you are too lazy to go look at my previous post. Ok here is the link for fatalities in the previous conflict: [Casualties of the Gaza War - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_War) - look at the IDF column. The number of combatants killed was later confirmed by a Hamas spokesman. Here is the link for that: [Finally, A Hamas Leader Admits That Israel Killed Mostly Combatants In Gaza :: Gatestone Institute](http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1738/finally-a-hamas-leader-admits-that-israel-killed) As for why I believe the ratios should be about the same in the current conflict - as I said, it is the same two sides and the same battlefield. Why would the ratios be different? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/876 "2014-07-30T03:42:19Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Saying that “Israel should stop bombardments” is exactly as pointless as saying “Hamas should stop bombardments.” Well, yes. That’s what many of us want. And when cease-fire arrangements are proposed, Israel says, “Let’s talk” and Hamas says “No.” But they could just stop the bombardment. They can continue to destroy tunnels without a bombardment. They don’t need the symbolic gesture of blowing up Hamas leaders’ homes, knowing full well they aren’t hanging out there. Since they’ve got boots on the ground they can use more line of sight methods to destroy buildings they deem too dangerous to enter. Since Israel seems rather immune to world criticism, they could just raid the hospital Hamas is using as an HQ. The bombardment is a club. It’s hard not to conclude that part of the motivation behind it is to punish Gazans for supporting Hamas. Anyways, I’ve said a couple times that a semipermanent occupation is probably required. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/877 "2014-07-30T04:19:52Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > . . . Since they’ve got boots on the ground they can use more line of sight methods to destroy buildings they deem too dangerous to enter. . . . Agreed. Grenades and small rocket-propelled-grenades instead of airstrikes, with various direct fire artillery options in between. Low-trajectory mortars, etc. There are lots of tactical solutions to urban warfare. > [@](#): > > Anyways, I’ve said a couple times that a semipermanent occupation is probably required. Possibly, but the experience in Lebanon suggests it would be costly. Over time, there would be more and more international pressure to pull out. And then we’re right back where we started (this latest round, anyway.) I shudder to think what life might be like here if the Confederates, after the Civil War, resorted to this kind of all-or-nothing resistance. Alabama might look like Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/878 "2014-07-30T04:28:40Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Agreed. Grenades and small rocket-propelled-grenades instead of airstrikes, with various direct fire artillery options in between. Low-trajectory mortars, etc. There are lots of tactical solutions to urban warfare. I don’t know if you were ever in active military, but sending in infantry without artillery support is always a big mistake. Read this: [Inside the IDF's war in Shejaia to save southern Israel - The Jerusalem Post](http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Inside-the-IDFs-war-in-Shejaia-to-save-southern-Israel-369102) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/879 "2014-07-30T04:33:16Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > According to WND Really, now. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/880 "2014-07-30T04:36:31Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > But they could just stop the bombardment. They can continue to destroy tunnels without a bombardment. They don’t need the symbolic gesture of blowing up Hamas leaders’ homes, knowing full well they aren’t hanging out there. Since they’ve got boots on the ground they can use more line of sight methods to destroy buildings they deem too dangerous to enter. Since Israel seems rather immune to world criticism, they could just raid the hospital Hamas is using as an HQ. The bombardment is a club. It’s hard not to conclude that part of the motivation behind it is to punish Gazans for supporting Hamas. > > Anyways, I’ve said a couple times that a semipermanent occupation is probably required. Hamas leaders’ homes are in Qatar. Do you really think attacking Qatar, particularly when Al Jazeera does and says whatever the Qatari government wants it to do and say is a good idea? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=45)