# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/901 "2014-07-30T20:35:57Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > At this point virtually all of Hamas’ leadership is no longer in the Gaza Strip. I’m not sure why that would shock you since they’ve never been a nationalist movement, but are an internationalist movement. > > Also, with all due respect, your view that Israel is immune to international criticism is frightfully provincial. > > Without meaning to be rude, have you ever been to Israel or the occupied territories or talked to any citizens from there? > > I ask because you seem to have a number of assumptions about them and their conflict that don’t really hold up to scrutiny. > **[Internationalism (politics)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalism_(politics))** > > Internationalism is a political principle that advocates greater political or economic cooperation among states and nations. It is associated with other political movements and ideologies, but can also reflect a doctrine, belief system, or movement in itself. > Supporters of internationalism are known as internationalists and generally believe that humans should unite across national, political, cultural, racial, or class boundaries to advance their common interests, or that governments should c... What do you mean internationalist movement? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/902 "2014-07-30T20:36:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah, I don’t get that. What is vengeance rockets supposed to mean? It sounds like he is saying that hamas is justified in attacking israel because Israel has done something to earn vengeance. I’m not the least bit surprised that you would reach that conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/903 "2014-07-30T20:38:46Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > …given that the Israeli air strikes started first … 😕 cite? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/904 "2014-07-30T20:39:39Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So what IS Israel offering to give up for peace, other than occupation and oppression? Do you mean what are they offering right now, or what have they offered in the past? Israel has already gone through two rounds of divesting themselves of territory seized in war - pulling out of territory it occupied and dismantling settlements. One was in respect of Egypt - Israel returned to it the entire Sinai, and dismantled settlements there. That proved successful. A peace treaty with Egypt was the result. The other was in respect of Gaza itself - again Israel pulled out and dismantled settlements there. That proved unsuccessful, as we have all seen. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/905 "2014-07-30T20:43:18Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah, I don’t get that. What is vengeance rockets supposed to mean? It sounds like he is saying that hamas is justified in attacking israel because Israel has done something to earn vengeance. I took it as a reference to the other noted use of rockets to bombard civilians - during WW2. The Germans referred to their weapons as “vengence” rockets - hence V-1, V-2. [http://battlefield-site.co.uk/v\_weapons.htm](http://battlefield-site.co.uk/v_weapons.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/906 "2014-07-30T21:04:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > [Internationalism (politics) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalism_(politics)) > > What do you mean internationalist movement? Because they don’t see themselves as Palestinian nationalists primarily but as part of the the international Islamist movement(or at least the one they’re a part of as opposed to say Al Quaeda). That’s why they’re referred to as “the brothers” because they’re the Muslim Brotherhood of Palestine just as there’s also the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood of Syria etc. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/907 "2014-07-30T21:07:49Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Do you mean what are they offering right now, or what have they offered in the past? I mean right now but I’m open to hearing about instances when Israel offered to make any substantial sacrifices in exchange for Palestinians giving up their struggle to regain their land. > [@](#): > > Israel has already gone through two rounds of divesting themselves of territory seized in war - pulling out of territory it occupied and dismantling settlements. > > One was in respect of Egypt - Israel returned to it the entire Sinai, and dismantled settlements there. That proved successful. A peace treaty with Egypt was the result. And that sacrifice was made to secure peace with an enemy that could actually harm them. If Palestinians had Egypt’s military might, I suspect that Israel would find some way to reach peace with them. > [@](#): > > The other was in respect of Gaza itself - again Israel pulled out and dismantled settlements there. That proved unsuccessful, as we have all seen. “In 2005, all 21 settlements in the Gaza Strip and four in the northern West Bank were forcibly evacuated as part of Israel’s unilateral disengagement plan.[3] However, the disengagement was more than compensated by transfers to the West Bank.[43]” Seems more like robbing peter to pay paul where peter and paul are brothers. [http://www.fmep.org/settlement\_info/settlement-info-and-tables/stats-data/comprehensive-settlement-population-1972-2006](http://www.fmep.org/settlement_info/settlement-info-and-tables/stats-data/comprehensive-settlement-population-1972-2006) Moving out 8000 settlers (out of 440,000 settler in all occupied territories) in gaza and still ending up with 30,000 more settlers in the year after moving out than the year before moving out doesn’t seem like a very significant sacrifice. So what sort of sacrifices have they made to settle their dispute with the Palestinians? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/908 "2014-07-30T21:22:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I mean right now but I’m open to hearing about instances when Israel offered to make any substantial sacrifices in exchange for Palestinians giving up their struggle to regain their land. > > And that sacrifice was made to secure peace with an enemy that could actually harm them. If Palestinians had Egypt’s military might, I suspect that Israel would find some way to reach peace with them. The Palestinian situation has harmed Israel considerably, even without military might. > [@](#): > > “In 2005, all 21 settlements in the Gaza Strip and four in the northern West Bank were forcibly evacuated as part of Israel’s unilateral disengagement plan.[3] However, the disengagement was more than compensated by transfers to the West Bank.[43]” > > Seems more like robbing peter to pay paul where peter and paul are brothers. > > [http://www.fmep.org/settlement\_info/settlement-info-and-tables/stats-data/comprehensive-settlement-population-1972-2006](http://www.fmep.org/settlement_info/settlement-info-and-tables/stats-data/comprehensive-settlement-population-1972-2006) > > Moving out 8000 settlers (out of 440,000 settler in all occupied territories) in gaza and still ending up with 30,000 more settlers in the year after moving out than the year before moving out doesn’t seem like a very significant sacrifice. > > So what sort of sacrifices have they made to settle their dispute with the Palestinians? You are cherry-picking data points here. The fact is that giving up physical control over the entire Gaza territory - and dismantling settlements there - represented a considerable concession and sacrifice, given the security implications - which we are in point of fact seeing the results of right now. Certainly, the Israelis did not make that move for the purposes of making “sacrifices to settle their dispute with the Palestinians”, but for their own purposes. However, given the results that occurred with this particular divestment when made unilaterally, it would appear irrational to expect Israelis to make “significant concessions” in advance of any sort of peace agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/909 "2014-07-31T01:07:45Z")
> **[How Hamas Wields Gaza's Casualties as Propaganda](https://time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-hamas-palestinian-casualties/)** > > The terrorist group casts Israel’s military as indiscriminate and civilian deaths as disproportionate, but Hamas-affiliated fatality figures should be viewed with suspicion. the spike in fatalities among males starting in their late teens and peaking in their early to mid-twenties, and the divergence of the pattern of fatalities from the demographic pattern of the population, raises considerable doubt about claims that as many as 75% or more of the fatalities are non-combatants. In light of evidence—provided by groups that monitor Arabic language media (like the Middle East Media Research Institute)—that Hamas has instructed Gazans to describe anyone killed as a civilian, journalists have a responsibility to convey this uncertainty to their audiences and not present figures provided by Hamas and Hamas-affiliated sources as unqualified fact. Responsibility? Definitely. Will they do that? Definitely not. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/910 "2014-07-31T01:14:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I personally find Terr’s post less than persuasive that reporters in Gaza only report what Hamas wants them to report, I’ve never heard any credible reports of the Israel governments threatening reporters who said things they didn’t like so I’m not sure I understand your post. > > Are you suggesting they do? I’m saying that they barefaced lie and have an army of supporters that will believe and repeat whatever the Israelis say. And many of those are either employed or recruited by the Israeli state to do so. The lying taking on darkly comical proportions, from the denials of white phosphorous last time (which they finally grudgingly accepted only when video footage of its use was circulated) to today’s shelling of a school while children slept inside (the official line of which is that it was a single errant shell that landed in the yard). ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/911 "2014-07-31T01:15:16Z")
From JPost’s twitter feed: “Over the past 24 hrs, 140+ rockets fired at Israel. 50 of them… wait for it… fell short in the Gaza Strip.” And that’s just today. And I bet every Palestinian killed by those rockets falling short is counted as “innocent civilian killed by Israel” ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/912 "2014-07-31T01:16:16Z")
And sorry for the late reply. I am in holiday and have been travelling. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/913 "2014-07-31T01:30:16Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I’m saying that they barefaced lie and have an army of supporters that will believe and repeat whatever the Israelis say. And many of those are either employed or recruited by the Israeli state to do so. > > The lying taking on darkly comical proportions, from the denials of white phosphorous last time (which they finally grudgingly accepted only when video footage of its use was circulated) to today’s shelling of a school while children slept inside (the official line of which is that it was a single errant shell that landed in the yard). Ah, I see. Thanks for the explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/914 "2014-07-31T02:59:18Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > And the idea that a raid on the civilian population of an occupied territory is self-defence in inherently absurd, It is not inherently absurd. The attacks against Israel were coming from that “civilian” population area. > [@](#): > > although the worse idea is that the air-strikes were self defence even though they started before the rocket attacks they are meant to be defending against. This is wrong, according to every source I can find. Not even Hamas is claiming that Israel launched the air strikes prior to Hamas launching the rocket attacks. In other words…cite? > [@](#): > > Both should stop bombardments, but if Hamas stop they get nothing. They don’t get a free state, they don’t get lessened Israeli controls, given that the Israeli air strikes started first Not true. Dozens of rockets were fired in June and July alone, prior to Israeli air strikes starting July 6. Two days before the first air strike against Gaza, [more than 20](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014) rockets were fired at Israel from Gaza. The fact that you seem to be ignorant of this suggests that either your sources or biased, or you have decided to reject information that doesn’t fit your opinion. > [@](#): > > there’s no reason to think they’d even get a cessation of the slaughter of their own civilian population. Of course they get something. The whole reason Hamas even controls Gaza at all is because Israel withdrew and allowed free elections there. Israel has nothing to gain by attacking Gaza willy-nilly. They don’t WANT Gaza. If the rockets and suicide bombers stop and the access tunnels are abandoned and destroyed, not another shot will be fired. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/915 "2014-07-31T03:53:23Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The Palestinian situation has harmed Israel considerably, even without military might. Some of that harm is self inflicted tho right? > [@](#): > > You are cherry-picking data points here. The fact is that giving up physical control over the entire Gaza territory - and dismantling settlements there - represented a considerable concession and sacrifice, given the security implications - which we are in point of fact seeing the results of right now. I’m not cherrypicking data. I am presenting Jewish settlement population of the occupied territories. You act as if there was less violence coming out of Gaza before the pullout. asn’t there an intifada immediately preceding the pullout? Or are you saying that pulling 8000 settlers (out of some 400,000) out of Palestinian territory didn’t secure a lasting peace so obviously it was a mistake? I swear, some people act like the pullout precipitated today’s violence. > [@](#): > > Certainly, the Israelis did not make that move for the purposes of making “sacrifices to settle their dispute with the Palestinians”, but for their own purposes. However, given the results that occurred with this particular divestment when made unilaterally, it would appear irrational to expect Israelis to make “significant concessions” in advance of any sort of peace agreement. I think the concession would be as part of a peace agreement (see arab peace initiative). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/916 "2014-07-31T04:12:28Z")
You keep harping on the Arab Peace Initiative. You do realize don’t you that every single political faction in Israel have rejected it because they won’t under any circumstances agree to having to take in so many Palestinian refugees that it will turn Israel into the 23rd Arab State. Israel would no more agree to that then the Arab states would agree to take responsibility for or to compensate the Jews they ethnically cleansed. Beyond that, the Israelis did offer financial compensation and the Palestinians repeatedly stated they won’t give up the right of return. To keep on promoting an agreement that effectively calls for an end to Israel as a Jewish State is an utter waste of time and is debating in bad faith. Perhaps if the Palestinians are willing to give up the right of return and admit they’ve been beaten by the Jews and Israel is the State of the Jews, a two state solution is possible, but until that happens it’s pointless to argue. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/917 "2014-07-31T04:22:40Z")
[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/CvaZ1a9wW3Y/hqdefault.jpg "L'ONU reconnait que le Hamas a recours aux boucliers humains") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvaZ1a9wW3Y) Interviewer: “Is Hamas or Islamic Jihad launching rockets nearby the UN schools, using them essentially as a shelter?” John Ging, UN: “Yes, the armed groups are firing their rockets into Israel from the vicinity of UN facilities and residential areas. Absolutely.” ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/918 "2014-07-31T04:46:05Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > . . . I swear, some people act like the pullout precipitated today’s violence. . . . No, it didn’t. But it didn’t forestall the violence either, and that’s a lesson the Israelis have taken to heart. If a significant concession didn’t help bring about peace…why bother ever trying it again? It only pushes an eventual settlement farther down the road. Every instance of violence only makes a final peace more remote. And, yeah, sure, every Israeli settlement built in the West Bank also makes peace more remote. But of the two sins, building houses or blowing them up, I have to see building them as less evil. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/919 "2014-07-31T05:28:50Z")
[Is this video accurate/real?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYcrYud3R94) Without getting into the politics, that seems remarkable. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/920 "2014-07-31T06:35:34Z")
If it’s fake, it’s damned well faked. If it’s real, it’s…damned. Anybody for an end to all wars? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=47)