# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![Danja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@Danja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danja)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/921 "2014-07-31T07:34:08Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > [Is this video accurate/real?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYcrYud3R94) > > Without getting into the politics, that seems remarkable. I have absolutely no experience with video fakery, but it looks very convincing to me. I don’t understand what Israel stands to gain from destroying an entire block though. Is it possible that the buildings were demolished internally (I’m not sure what Hamas would gain from that either). I don’t see the point for either side. On a related note, I was debating the issue today and asked one of my acquaintances in the National Guard about what would happen in an analogous situation if the US forces in Afghanistan came under fire from a hospital in Kabul during the invasion. My friend claimed that the US would be obligated to operate under this fire until such a point that a team of soldiers could clear the facility with small arms. She also claimed that the US would be under international obligation to refrain from attacking the hospital using artillery if there were civilians inside. Is this actually the case? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/922 "2014-07-31T07:41:56Z")
> [@Danja](#): > > I have absolutely no experience with video fakery, but it looks very convincing to me. I don’t understand what Israel stands to gain from destroying an entire block though. Is it possible that the buildings were demolished internally (I’m not sure what Hamas would gain from that either). I don’t see the point for either side. There were probably gunmen inside threatening Israeli ground troops. Having artillery pound enemy fortifications before your infantry advances is standard military doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/923 "2014-07-31T07:54:26Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > No, it didn’t. But it didn’t forestall the violence either, and that’s a lesson the Israelis have taken to heart. If a significant concession didn’t help bring about peace…why bother ever trying it again? > > It only pushes an eventual settlement farther down the road. Every instance of violence only makes a final peace more remote. And, yeah, sure, every Israeli settlement built in the West Bank also makes peace more remote. But of the two sins, building houses or blowing them up, I have to see building them as less evil. Again, a net increase in settlers is not a significant concession, it is the opposite. Every house “built” is on land that had to be cleared of Palestinians first, and involves the demolition of Palestinian homes. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/924 "2014-07-31T07:56:40Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > To keep on promoting an agreement that effectively calls for an end to Israel as a Jewish State is an utter waste of time and is debating in bad faith. Israel is entirely built on racialism and violence. Calling for an end to that without eradicating Israel is unrealistic. Good defence. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/925 "2014-07-31T08:06:07Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Again, a net increase in settlers is not a significant concession, it is the opposite. Every house “built” is on land that had to be cleared of Palestinians first, and involves the demolition of Palestinian homes. I’ve been to the settlements and I can tell you that with a few exceptions, that’s patently untrue. The West Bank may be densely populated, but it’s not \*that \*densely populated. There are still plenty of hilltops and open fields, and building there is a lot cheaper and more convenient that first demolishing Arab homes. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/926 "2014-07-31T08:23:37Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Israel is entirely built on racialism and violence. Calling for an end to that without eradicating Israel is unrealistic. Good defence. So, your solution to the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians is the eradication of Israel? Regardless of whether or not one supports that, what makes you think you’ll find any significant number of Israeli or diaspora Jews who would support this? Proposing solutions that one side will reject out of hand is pretty pointless and a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/927 "2014-07-31T09:34:34Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > 😕 > > cite? > **[Why Did Bernie Sanders Get Gaza So Wrong?](https://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/24/why-did-bernie-sanders-get-gaza-so-wrong/)** > > Senators Sanders & Leahy Join in Deeply Flawed Resolution Supporting Israel > [@](#): > > A report issued by the authoritative the “Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center” (ITIC), a private Israeli think tank that “has close ties with the country’s military leadership,” unintentionally debunked the Senate resolution more than a week before its unanimous consent vote in the Senate. The weekly ITIC reports regarding rocket fire are frequently quoted on the Israeli government’s own web site. > > The ITIC July 8, 2014 report,“News of Terrorism and the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (July 2 – 8, 2014),” states: “For the first time sinceOperation Pillar of Defense [November 2012], Hamas participated in and claimed responsibility for rocket fire [on July 7, 2014].” > > Thus, Hamas rocket fire only re-started on July 7after a 19 month cease-fire. As we will see, this was nearly a month after Israeli forces launched massive military operations in the West Bank and Gaza starting on June 12. But those Israeli military operations were not the only provocation. > > First, about the cease fire that was in place: Operation Pillar of Defense was an 8 day aerial assault on Gaza in November 2012 that ended with a ceasefire agreement brokered by Egypt. Graphs presented on the ITIC website show that the cease-fire was effective. In the weeks and months following that agreement, the ITIC consistently reported the absence of Hamas rocket fire. In addition, a May 2013 article in the Jerusalem Post, “IDF source: Hamas working to stop Gaza rockets,” reported that Hamas was policing other groups to prevent rocket fire. > > The July 8 ITIC report also divulged **why Hamas launched its first rocket** fire at Israel in more than 19 months on July 7: **On that night Israeli forces had bombed and killed 6 Hamas members in Gaza**. The ITIC report includes a picture of the six Hamas members. Thus, a report from an authoritative Israeli source described the provocation for the resumption of rocket fire: Hamas rocket fire began only after Israeli forces had engaged in nearly a month of military operations in violation of the ceasefire agreement and had killed 6 Hamas members in Gaza. The original report is linked to at the site. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/928 "2014-07-31T09:42:09Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Israel is entirely built on racialism and violence. Calling for an end to that\*\* without eradicating Israel is unrealistic. \*\*Good defence. Why, do please tell us how this is to be achieved. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/929 "2014-07-31T10:01:18Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > [Why Did Bernie Sanders Get Gaza So Wrong? - CounterPunch.org](http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/24/why-did-bernie-sanders-get-gaza-so-wrong/) Your article mentions Hamas rockets only; rockets had been launched by Islamic Jihad and other organizations for several days previously. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/930 "2014-07-31T14:16:14Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > [Why Did Bernie Sanders Get Gaza So Wrong? - CounterPunch.org](http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/24/why-did-bernie-sanders-get-gaza-so-wrong/) > “Thus, Hamas rocket fire only re-started on July 7after a 19 month cease-fire.” > > The original report is linked to at the site. That’s what happens when you take “counterpunch”'s “facts” seriously. Let’s see, this is the article from July 6th: > **[Israeli Airstrikes Hit Gaza Strip as Rockets Continue to Fall](https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/west-bank-kidnappings/israeli-airstrikes-hit-gaza-strip-rockets-continue-fall-n149011)** > > The Israeli airstrikes targeted what it said were militant sites including rocket launchers and a weapons manufacturing site, following at least 29 other rockets and mortars fired from the Gaza Strip at Israel. Israel’s military carried out airstrikes on 10 sites in the Gaza Strip early Sunday, the army said, as tensions remained high following weekend clashes between Israeli police and demonstrators in Jerusalem and Arab towns in northern Israel. The Israeli airstrikes targeted what it said were militant sites including rocket launchers and a weapons manufacturing site, **following at least 29 other rockets and mortars fired from the Gaza Strip at Israel over the weekend** , the army said. Two of those rockets were aimed at Beersheba, a southern city deeper into Israel than any other attack in the current round of violence. or maybe this one: > **[Israeli Air Strikes Kill 7 Gaza Gunmen: Hamas Militants - Newsweek](https://www.newsweek.com/israeli-air-strikes-kill-7-gaza-gunmen-hamas-militants-257368)** > > The attacks followed a surge in rocket strikes at Israel from Gaza, where Hamas is the dominant force GAZA (Reuters) - Israeli air strikes killed seven Hamas gunmen early Monday, the Islamist group’s armed wing said, making it their highest single death toll since a 2012 cross-border war with the Jewish state. Israeli military authorities confirmed the strikes, saying they “responded to rocket attacks against southern Israel,” targeting 9 “terror” sites and concealed rocket launchers. The attacks followed a surge in rocket strikes at Israel from Gaza, where Hamas is the dominant force. The Israeli military said these attacks have topped 150 since mid-June, including about 20 rockets striking Israel on Sunday alone. I guess you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/931 "2014-07-31T15:15:57Z")
> **[Why Hamas stores its weapons inside hospitals, mosques and schools](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/?tid=pm_pop)** During one short-lived lull in rocket fire, The Washington Post’s William Booth saw a “group of men” at a mosque in northern Gaza. They said they had returned to clean up glass from shattered windows. “But they could be seen moving small rockets into the mosque,” Booth wrote. He also reported that Shifa Hospital in Gaza City had “become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices.” Wall Street Journal reporter Nick Casey tweeted an image of a Hamas spokesman giving an interview at a Gaza hospital. With the shelling, “You have to wonder … how patients at Shifa hospital feel as Hamas uses it as a safe place to see media.” The tweet was later deleted. … According to longtime Middle East analyst Matthew Levitt, Hamas has long planted weapons in areas inhabited by vulnerable residents. “It happens in schools,” he wrote in Middle East Quarterly. “Hamas has buried caches of arms and explosives under its own kindergarten playgrounds,” referencing a 2001 State Department report that said a Hamas leader was arrested after “additional explosives in a Gaza kindergarten” were discovered. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/932 "2014-07-31T15:31:49Z")
> **[Amid the tunnels and the traps of Hamas’s militarized Gaza](https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-the-tunnels-and-the-traps-of-hamass-militarized-gaza/)** > > In what remains of a Khan Younis suburb, observing the IDF's mission to find and demolish terror tunnels dug into Israel, without being surprised by Hamas gunmen or the bombs they've hidden everywhere An additional challenge is Hamas’s almost unthinkable decision to rig the homes of many residents in the Strip with explosives, aiming to collapse the structures upon Israeli soldiers. There is of course also a bonus that the blown-up houses later create a great Western-sympathy-creating photo op. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/933 "2014-07-31T16:43:56Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > [Why Did Bernie Sanders Get Gaza So Wrong? - CounterPunch.org](http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/24/why-did-bernie-sanders-get-gaza-so-wrong/) Counterpunch is a whacko truther website which is infamous for spouting anti-Semitic propaganda. It has published articles by Holocaust Deniers, people who’ve insisted the “blood libel” was correct, as well as other conspiracy theories. They’re hardly a reliable source and I’d recommend finding one more reliable. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/934 "2014-07-31T16:59:46Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So rinse and repeat? Have we achieved “an acceptable level of violence” The “acceptable level of violence” is achieved when they stop bombing Israel. Anything done after the rocket attacks stop is not acceptable. Anything before that is just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/935 "2014-07-31T17:38:04Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Counterpunch is a whacko truther website which is infamous for spouting anti-Semitic propaganda. It has published articles by Holocaust Deniers, people who’ve insisted the “blood libel” was correct, as well as other conspiracy theories. > > They’re hardly a reliable source and I’d recommend finding one more reliable. I guess I’m going to be one of those people who quote themselves; I didn’t get the exact website right but got my trifecta with **blindboyard** using a truther website: > [@Dissonance](#): > > [Global research](http://www.globalresearch.ca/) and [informationclearinghouse](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/).:dubious: All we need now is whale.to or [911truth.org](http://911truth.org) for the trifecta. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/936 "2014-07-31T18:47:08Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You keep harping on the Arab Peace Initiative. > You do realize don’t you that every single political faction in Israel have rejected it because they won’t under any circumstances agree to having to take in so many Palestinian refugees that it will turn Israel into the 23rd Arab State. I thought there was a pol taken few years ago where they asked Palestinians if they would take the money and either stay where they were (or move to soemplace other than israel) or if they would move back to Israel and the majority picked the former. Sure this would move things closer to the day when Israel is no longer a majority Jewish nation but so what? Why should we give any moral weight at all to that position? Why shoudl we respect that position any more thanw e respect Hamas’s position that Israel must revert back to what it was before 1948? > [@](#): > > Israel would no more agree to that then the Arab states would agree to take responsibility for or to compensate the Jews they ethnically cleansed. I think the other arab states should agree to pay some part of the restitution package that is offered to Palestinians. > [@](#): > > Beyond that, the Israelis did offer financial compensation and the Palestinians repeatedly stated they won’t give up the right of return. Its supposed to be restitition OR the right of return, not restitution INSTEAD OF the right of return. And frankly even those taht are permitted tor eturn to Israel should get some restitution. > [@](#): > > To keep on promoting an agreement that effectively calls for an end to Israel as a Jewish State is an utter waste of time and is debating in bad faith. No its not. You’re just saying that we shoudl respect Israel’s preconditions but not Palestinian preconditions. > [@](#): > > Perhaps if the Palestinians are willing to give up the right of return and admit they’ve been beaten by the Jews and Israel is the State of the Jews, a two state solution is possible, but until that happens it’s pointless to argue. Well, yes but only because (as you point out) the Israelis would never agree to it. Its not like the Pallestinians are askig the jews to all walk into the ocean anymore now is it? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/937 "2014-07-31T18:50:03Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > No, it didn’t. But it didn’t forestall the violence either, and that’s a lesson the Israelis have taken to heart. If a significant concession didn’t help bring about peace…why bother ever trying it again? > > It only pushes an eventual settlement farther down the road. Every instance of violence only makes a final peace more remote. And, yeah, sure, every Israeli settlement built in the West Bank also makes peace more remote. But of the two sins, building houses or blowing them up, I have to see building them as less evil. I disagree with your characterization. moving out 8000 of 400,000 settlers is not what I would call a significant concession. Moving out the military troops was not an act of unilateral charity, now was it? And i don’t see how settlements are that much better than rockets or why rockets are not a permissible reponse to encroaching on my land. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/938 "2014-07-31T18:58:15Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So, your solution to the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians is the eradication of Israel? > > Regardless of whether or not one supports that, what makes you think you’ll find any significant number of Israeli or diaspora Jews who would support this? > > Proposing solutions that one side will reject out of hand is pretty pointless and a waste of time. > [@Velocity](#): > > Why, do please tell us how this is to be achieved. :rolleyes: I am reading what he is saying differently than you guys. He is restating your argument (at least the way he sees it). (1) Israel is a zionist state that is built on racialism and violence; (2) We cannot realistically end that without eradicating Israel; (3) Therefore we must preserve and protect Israel’s racialism and violence. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/939 "2014-07-31T19:00:39Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Your article mentions Hamas rockets only; rockets had been launched by Islamic Jihad and other organizations for several days previously. Wait. So now its not even hamas, the elcted representatives of gaza? Wasn’t it the Hamas=Gaza the foundation for blowing up Gaza? Now its some even more fringe element of Palestinian extremists in gaza that we are punishing all of gaza for? BTW did they conclude that Hamas was not responsible for the kidnap and deaths of those three teenage Israeli boys? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/940 "2014-07-31T19:02:28Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Anything before that is just fine. Anything? Really? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=48)