# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/941 "2014-07-31T19:04:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No its not. You’re just saying that we shoudl respect Israel’s preconditions but not Palestinian preconditions. The “Israeli preconditions” of course being that any agreement allow for the continued survival of Israel. Yeah, those are completely unreasonable.:rolleyes: For the record, as I’ve said before, if there’s going to be a solution, it would require a stable, viable Palestinian state and a guarantee of security and continued existence for Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/942 "2014-07-31T19:39:50Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I am reading what he is saying differently than you guys. > > He is restating your argument (at least the way he sees it). > > (1) Israel is a zionist state that is built on racialism and violence; > (2) We cannot realistically end that without eradicating Israel; > (3) Therefore we must preserve and protect Israel’s racialism and violence. “Zionism” means nothing more than “Jewish ethnic nationalism” Nearly all states are built on “racialism” if by “racialism” one means “ethnic nationalism”. Think of the Germans in Germany, the Russians in Russia, the Turks in Turkey or the French in France. All states pretty well without exception are built on “violence”. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/943 "2014-07-31T20:25:14Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > “Zionism” means nothing more than “Jewish ethnic nationalism” > > Nearly all states are built on “racialism” if by “racialism” one means “ethnic nationalism”. Think of the Germans in Germany, the Russians in Russia, the Turks in Turkey or the French in France. > > All states pretty well without exception are built on “violence”. Beyond that, anyone who argues that Israel should agree to a solution that “eradicates” it is making unreasonable demands. You might as well argue the solution to the Pamidtani-Indian conflict is for India to annex Pakistan and be shocked when Pakistan gets upset. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/944 "2014-07-31T20:44:34Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > . . . Every house “built” is on land that had to be cleared of Palestinians first, and involves the demolition of Palestinian homes. Not always true, although it is sometimes. Many of the settlements are built on land that was empty. Some were built upon field or orchard land that was seized, but not by demolishing homes. The truth is bad enough; exaggerations don’t help anyone uncover the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/945 "2014-07-31T20:48:13Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I disagree with your characterization. > > moving out 8000 of 400,000 settlers is not what I would call a significant concession. Moving out the military troops was not an act of unilateral charity, now was it? > > And i don’t see how settlements are that much better than rockets or why rockets are not a permissible reponse to encroaching on my land. Are you seriously claiming that Israel has 320,000 settlers in Gaza? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/946 "2014-07-31T22:13:19Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Heh. > > So you think that slaughtering hundreds if not thousands of “collaborators”(I assume you’re familiar with what that means in Gaza) hasn’t undercut Hamas but you think the killing of more “collaborators” will? 1. Cite for thousands of local Hamas victims please. Never seen any claims that Hamas had bumped off thousands of Palestinians, so please back that up. 2. Don’t make assumptions. I reckon everytime Hamas kills someone on their home turf, it does undermine their support. Just like everytime the IRA killed someone on their hometurf, it weakened their support 3. But just like the IRA, you then get into a balancing act for local support. They might be bastards, but they’re your bastards, and those f\*\*\*\*\*\*g [English/Israeli/substitute occupying force involved] are much bloody worse. By the way - starting with “Heh.”? Care to explain why that’s any more polite than me starting posts with “duhhhh” or something similarly patronising? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/947 "2014-07-31T22:15:37Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Are you distorting the facts? > > I wondered how **Gary Kumquat** would classify those specific deaths. What Gary Kumquat would do is look for a more reputable cite. And he did. And all he could find was Israeli media reporting it, and then other media citing the Israeli reports. So, cite please. Because if I’m going to distort facts, I really need actual facts to distort. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/948 "2014-07-31T22:21:07Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > What Gary Kumquat would do is look for a more reputable cite. And he did. And all he could find was Israeli media reporting it, and then other media citing the Israeli reports. Nifty. Do you apply the same standard to the other side? That is, if something is reported by Hamas, and then other media based on that Hamas reporting, do you dismiss it? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/949 "2014-07-31T22:43:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I guess you are too lazy to go look at my previous post… > > …As for why I believe the ratios should be about the same in the current conflict - as I said, it is the same two sides and the same battlefield. Why would the ratios be different? With regards to your first comment, I just find with you it’s good to get specifics. It’s not a lot of fun to go and find the flaws with one of your links, so you can then say you were referring to another. So, in this case you’ve gone for the IDF figures from a wiki link, on the basis of a gatestone institute article. Now obviously you know who Gatestone are, so will understand just why their claims will be viewed as circumspect, right? I mean this is the same lot who claim that Islamis’s are interested in sodomy for jihad: > **[Sodomy "For the Sake of Islam"](https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3158/islam-sodomy)** > > In a recent article titled "Sodomy 'For the sake of Islam'," Raymond Ibrahim, an associate fellow at the Middle East Forum, reported that Abdullah Hassan al-Asiri, who plotted to assassinate Saudi Prince Muhammad bin Nayef in 2009 with a bomb hidden... "Citing his desire for “martyrdom and the virgins of paradise,” one jihadi, (possibly al-Asiri himself) asked another sheikh, “Is it permissible for me to let one of the jihadi brothers sodomize me to widen my anus if the intention is good?” Of course, that was complete propaganda ( see loonwatch’s analysis of the video involved here [Sodomy for Jihad or Islamophobic Hoax? | Loonwatch.com](http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/07/sodomy-for-jihad-or-islamophobic-hoax/) ) but that is what Gatestone does, after all ( funnily enough for an offshoot of [the Hudson Institute](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatestone_Institute), founded by those fun loving guys from the [Rand Corporation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson_Institute)) In short, you’re quoting propaganda to support the IDFs bodycount ratio for the last atrocity…and then arguing that this one will probably be the same. Now, I appreciate that this position will do just fine for your confirmation bias, but I must admit it’s not cutting much ice with me. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/950 "2014-07-31T22:54:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Nifty. Do you apply the same standard to the other side? That is, if something is reported by Hamas, and then other media based on that Hamas reporting, do you dismiss it? Yes. Yes I do. I think Hamas are a massive bunch of evil bastards and full of shit. That doesn’t mean though that I think the arseholes on the opposing side are any better.This seems to be a position that confuses you? I will try to explain it as simply as I can. I like the people of Israel a lot. I could explain my personal reasons for this, but there’s no point. You have to paint me as being biased, because that’s the only way to support your narrative, so any anything I give describing a personal connection to either the Jewish faith or the people of Israel, you will dismiss as a lie. Whereas I have no connection to the people of Gaza, but I must assume they’re just the same as you or I, so I’m rather upset to see over a thousand of them killed for a bad reason. No particular reason, it’s just generally when hundreds of children are being killed, along with innocent women and men, I think that’s rather crap and should be discouraged. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/951 "2014-07-31T22:56:06Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Now, I appreciate that this position will do just fine for your confirmation bias, but I must admit it’s not cutting much ice with me. I see you’re doubling down on ignorance. How’s Time Magazine for you? > **[How Hamas Wields Gaza's Casualties as Propaganda](https://time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-hamas-palestinian-casualties/)** > > The terrorist group casts Israel’s military as indiscriminate and civilian deaths as disproportionate, but Hamas-affiliated fatality figures should be viewed with suspicion. We have seen this before. A similar dispute over casualty figures occurred during Israel’s “Operation Cast Lead” in the Gaza Strip in January 2009. The Israelis contended that the majority of the fatalities were combatants; the Palestinians claimed they were civilians. The media and international organizations tended to side with the Palestinians. The UN’s own investigatory commission headed by Richard Goldstone, which produced the Goldstone Report, cited PCHR’s figures along with other Palestinian groups providing similar figures. Over a year later, after the news media had moved on, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hammad enumerated Hamas fatalities at 600 to 700, a figure close to the Israeli estimate of 709 and about three times higher than the figure of 236 combatants provided by PCHR in 2009 and cited in the Goldstone Report. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/952 "2014-07-31T22:56:42Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > “Zionism” means nothing more than “Jewish ethnic nationalism” Out of interest, what geographic constraints are attached to that nation? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/953 "2014-07-31T23:13:21Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I see you’re doubling down on ignorance. How’s Time Magazine for you? In other words, you accept your first cite is massively compromised, so have found one that’s not complete conspiraloon territory? Good for you! Except now you’re quoting Steven Stotsky: “Steven Stotsky is a senior analyst with The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America (CAMERA), a U.S.-based group that monitors the news media for what it considers to be anti-Israel bias” You know CAMERA right? The same group caught setting up a Wikipedia PR campaign to whitewash any Israel relate entities ( [http://electronicintifada.net/files/080421-camera-wikipedia.pdf](http://electronicintifada.net/files/080421-camera-wikipedia.pdf) ). The organisation “[known for its pro-Israel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_for_Accuracy_in_Middle_East_Reporting_in_America)” advocacy, set up with the express purpose of promoting Israel’s tactics. In your opinion, is an author from such a lobby group a reputable source? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/954 "2014-07-31T23:30:06Z")
Heh. If you’re going attack CAMERA’s credibility(which is quite a reasonable position) I’d recommend against using the “Electronic Intifada” as your source. It undercuts you a bit. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/955 "2014-07-31T23:30:10Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I wonder how **Gary Kumquat** will classify them? > [@CarnalK](#): > > You know, just because you disagree with him there’s no need to imply he’s distorting obvious facts. But i guess I shouldn’t expect much from a guy who keeps saying “vengeance rockets”. > [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > What Gary Kumquat would do is look for a more reputable cite. And he did. And all he could find was Israeli media reporting it, and then other media citing the Israeli reports. > > So, cite please. Because if I’m going to distort facts, I really need actual facts to distort. You’ll have to take up that distortion issue with **CarnalK**. He’s the one who tied your nom de plume to the distorting of obvious facts. I took your side. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/956 "2014-07-31T23:34:02Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > I like the people of Israel a lot. I could explain my personal reasons for this, but there’s no point. You have to paint me as being biased, because that’s the only way to support your narrative, so any anything I give describing a personal connection to either the Jewish faith or the people of Israel, you will dismiss as a lie. I’ll bite. Since you brought it up, perhaps you could explain it to me. I won’t call you a liar. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/957 "2014-07-31T23:50:29Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > In other words, you accept your first cite is massively compromised, so have found one that’s not complete conspiraloon territory? Those are the same exact facts that are being reported. Even in “The Islamic News”. [http://theislamicnews.com/palestine-hamas-acknowledges-higher-casualties-in-gaza-war/](http://theislamicnews.com/palestine-hamas-acknowledges-higher-casualties-in-gaza-war/) He told the paper, “They say the people suffered from this war, but is Hamas not part of the people? On the first day of the war Israel targeted police stations and 250 martyrs were killed, from Hamas and other factions”. “In addition to them, between 200 and 300 fighters from the Al-Qassam Brigades (Hamas’s armed wing) and another 150 security forces were martyred.” The exact same quote. If you think it is fabricated, guess who’s the “conspiraloon”? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/958 "2014-07-31T23:50:49Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Heh. > > If you’re going attack CAMERA’s credibility(which is quite a reasonable position) I’d recommend against using the “Electronic Intifada” as your source. > > It undercuts you a bit. Sorry, I only just noticed your complaint about the use of the word “heh”. Sorry about that. No offense was intended. Unfortunately the edit window has lapsed, so I can’t edit it out. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/959 "2014-07-31T23:53:12Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Heh. > > If you’re going attack CAMERA’s credibility(which is quite a reasonable position) I’d recommend against using the “Electronic Intifada” as your source. > > It undercuts you a bit. See previous comment about “Heh” Shit, I’m happy to swap insults if you fancy, but go to the right forum, there’s a pal. Wikipedia also describe CAMERA’s little propaganda play, [in their own article on CAMERA:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_for_Accuracy_in_Middle_East_Reporting_in_America#cite_note-Harpers-74) > [@](#): > > In an April 2008 article, the pro-Palestinian online publication Electronic Intifada revealed the existence of a Google group set up by CAMERA.[70] The stated purpose of the group was “help[ing] us keep Israel-related entries on Wikipedia from becoming tainted by anti-Israel editors”… > > Excerpts of some of the e-mails were published in the July 2008 issue of Harper’s Magazine under the title of “Candid camera.”[74] In April 2008, CAMERA’s “Senior Research Analyst” Gilead Ini would not confirm that the messages were genuine but maintained that there was a CAMERA email campaign which adhered to Wikipedia’s rules.[75] In August 2008, Ini argued the excerpts published in Harper’s Magazine were unrepresentative and that CAMERA had campaigned “toward encouraging people to learn about and edit the online encyclopedia for accuracy”.[76] > > A group of Wikipedia administrators strongly believed an editor on Wikipedia to be Gilead Ini and blocked that user account indefinitely.[73][77] In April 2008 Gilead refused to say whether he was behind the Gni account,[75]… > > Five editors involved in the campaign were sanctioned by Wikipedia administrators, who wrote that Wikipedia’s open nature “is fundamentally incompatible with the creation of a private group to surreptitiously coordinate editing”.[79][80] They were caught bonny. So far, Terr’s quoted one offshoot of the Rand corporation, and a journalist who works for a pro-Israeli PR group. And he feels free to accuse others of “doubling down on ignorance” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/960 "2014-07-31T23:53:29Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Yes. Yes I do. No, no you don’t. Example: how do you know “hundreds of children are being killed”? Because Hamas reports it. Can you find independent confirmation that does not just repeat what Hamas says? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=47) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=49)