# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/961 "2014-08-01T00:12:06Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > See previous comment about “Heh” Shit, I’m happy to swap insults if you fancy, but go to the right forum, there’s a pal. > > Wikipedia also describe CAMERA’s little propaganda play, [in their own article on CAMERA:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_for_Accuracy_in_Middle_East_Reporting_in_America#cite_note-Harpers-74) If you’ll notice I already said I hadn’t seen your complaint until after the edit window passed. I also didn’t defend CAMERA. Just the opposite. I merely noted that the Electronic Intifada is hardly in a position to talk. Your wikipedia cite actually does the Electronic Intifada no help in that regard either. My point was if you’re going to attack Terr for using CAMERA, you might want to not use sources like the Electronica Intifada since it’s more than a tad hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/962 "2014-08-01T00:25:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Those are the same exact facts that are being reported. Even in “The Islamic News”. I love the use of “even” Out of interest, can you tell me who operates [theislamicnews.com](http://theislamicnews.com), as their last update was 2011. Obviously from the emphatic use of even this is a cite that you feel is well renowned, so please do advise who they are. So, reading their article: “Fathi Hammad, Hamas interior minister told Al-Hayat, which is a London-based Arabic newspaper” Of course we’re big fan of primary sources, right? So I went to[Al-Hayat](http://alhayat.com/), to have a look, and did a search on Fathi Hammad. Perhaps you could help: “دان البيت الأبيض اليوم الأربعاء قصف مدرسة تابعة للأمم المتحدة في غزة، قدرت السلطات المحلية انه أسفر عن مقتل ما لا يقل عن 15 فلسطينيا كانوا يحتمون فيها.” So considering how reputable they are as a source, maybe you could clarify? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/963 "2014-08-01T00:29:32Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > “Fathi Hammad, Hamas interior minister told Al-Hayat, which is a London-based Arabic newspaper” > > Of course we’re big fan of primary sources, right? So I went to[Al-Hayat](http://alhayat.com/), to have a look, and did a search on Fathi Hammad. Perhaps you could help: > > “دان البيت الأبيض اليوم الأربعاء قصف مدرسة تابعة للأمم المتحدة في غزة، قدرت السلطات المحلية انه أسفر عن مقتل ما لا يقل عن 15 فلسطينيا كانوا يحتمون فيها.” > > So considering how reputable they are as a source, maybe you could clarify? Relevance? Btw how is the Palestinian news agency as a source for you? [http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=329861](http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=329861) ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/964 "2014-08-01T00:35:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Relevance? I agree, and I’m impressed by your candour. Most people would defend their own cite, rather than question it’s relevance. ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/965 "2014-08-01T01:51:41Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Are you seriously claiming that Israel has 320,000 settlers in Gaza? Wouldn’t that be 392,000?😕 ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/966 "2014-08-01T02:09:07Z")
> [@standingwave](#): > > Wouldn’t that be 392,000?😕 Very likely! Serves me right for doing it in my head and not using a calculator. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/967 "2014-08-01T03:56:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Relevance? **Gary** butchered the quote so that it didn’t translate properly. [This](https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ar&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alhayat.com%2FArticles%2F3902173%2F%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25A8%25D9%258A%25D8%25AA-%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25A3%25D8%25A8%25D9%258A%25D8%25B6-%25D8%25B4%25D8%25A8%25D9%2587-%25D9%2585%25D8%25AA%25D8%25A3%25D9%2583%25D8%25AF-%25D8%25A3%25D9%2586-%25D9%2582%25D8%25B5%25D9%2581-%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D9%2585%25D8%25AF%25D8%25B1%25D8%25B3%25D8%25A9-%25D9%2581%25D9%258A-%25D8%25BA%25D8%25B2%25D8%25A9-%25D9%2585%25D8%25B5%25D8%25AF%25D8%25B1%25D9%2587-%25D8%25A5%25D8%25B3%25D8%25B1%25D8%25A7%25D8%25A6%25D9%258A%25D9%2584&edit-text=) is what he was referring to. Of course, his attempt at a gotcha is a rather transparent attempt to change the subject. There’s no excuse for using a mangled, unsourced quote written in a different language when he could have just gone to [the White House’s own website](http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/07/30/press-gaggle-principal-deputy-press-secretary-eric-schultz-en-route-join). Not only is it not the primary source, it only says something which you do not dispute (that one of the buildings destroyed by Israeli counterbattery fire was a UN school). ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/968 "2014-08-01T04:47:00Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > . . . that one of the buildings destroyed by Israeli counterbattery fire was a UN school). With weapons stored in the basement, something the UN has admitted. (The weapons were not stored there with UN permission…but there were weapons stored there, and that makes the building a legitimate military target.) ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/969 "2014-08-01T05:31:46Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > **Gary** butchered the quote so that it didn’t translate properly. That quote is a direct c&p and I haven’t “butchered” anything for effect. It’s a direct, c&p excerpt of the first article that came up when I searched for the supposed source of Terr’s figures for Hamas fatalities. I even bloody said that: “Of course we’re big fan of primary sources, right? So I went to Al-Hayat, to have a look, and did a search on Fathi Hammad.” It’s put there purely because Terr has quoted two websites that both refer to another website, and short of someone with decent arabic doing a search on the supposed source it’s impossible to know what was said or even if the primary article is there at all. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/970 "2014-08-01T11:22:05Z")
So it seems like Hamas has taken an Israeli soldier captive, which means that this thing will likely go on for quite a while. On a semi-related note, my reserve unit got called up, so starting next week, I may find myself posting less often. Not that I’ve taken that big a part in these threads - I’m too close to things to keep a cool head in debate - but I just thought you might want to know. ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/971 "2014-08-01T11:54:52Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So it seems like Hamas has taken an Israeli soldier captive, which means that this thing will likely go on for quite a while. > > On a semi-related note, my reserve unit got called up, so starting next week, I may find myself posting less often. Not that I’ve taken that big a part in these threads - I’m too close to things to keep a cool head in debate - but I just thought you might want to know. Go and return safely. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/972 "2014-08-01T11:55:35Z")
> [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](#): > > Go and return safely. That’s the plan. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/973 "2014-08-01T13:04:18Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > With weapons stored in the basement, something the UN has admitted. (The weapons were not stored there with UN permission…but there were weapons stored there, and that makes the building a legitimate military target.) I don’t think it was that school. Israel is not claiming that anyway. It is claiming they were fired upon from near the school, which was a known refugee centre. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/974 "2014-08-01T13:04:36Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Out of interest, what geographic constraints are attached to that nation? What geographic constraints are attached to the nation of “Poland”? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/975 "2014-08-01T13:14:46Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Anything? Really? Yeah, pretty much. You get a crappy gun with terrible aim and start shooting at my family, even if you’ll only hit them with dumb luck, I’m morally\* in the right to do _whatever_ it takes to stop you. A face shot, running you over with a car, whatever. The way to stop retaliations is…get this…to stop attacking in the first place. I get that’s a hard concept, but it’s not worth the (I hope) faux “Gosh, wow” amazement in your post. \*Although maybe not legally, depending on where I am. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/976 "2014-08-01T16:04:28Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The “Israeli preconditions” of course being that any agreement allow for the continued survival of Israel. > > Yeah, those are completely unreasonable.:rolleyes: > > For the record, as I’ve said before, if there’s going to be a solution, it would require a stable, viable Palestinian state and a guarantee of security and continued existence for Israel. So Israel is not taking right of return off the table as a precondition? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/977 "2014-08-01T16:05:31Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > “Zionism” means nothing more than “Jewish ethnic nationalism” > > Nearly all states are built on “racialism” if by “racialism” one means “ethnic nationalism”. Think of the Germans in Germany, the Russians in Russia, the Turks in Turkey or the French in France. > > All states pretty well without exception are built on “violence”. Don’t these things usually involve a big unification war and some ethnic cleansing? Are those sort of things as acceptable today as they were in the past? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/978 "2014-08-01T16:07:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Beyond that, anyone who argues that Israel should agree to a solution that “eradicates” it is making unreasonable demands. > > You might as well argue the solution to the Pamidtani-Indian conflict is for India to annex Pakistan and be shocked when Pakistan gets upset. Thats a silly comparison. Pakistanis don’t want the right to move back to india or vice versa. AFAICT, they are fighting about regions of India that are majority Mulsim but were ruled by Hindu monarchs at the time the borders were drawn (and vice versa). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/979 "2014-08-01T16:09:57Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Are you seriously claiming that Israel has 320,000 settlers in Gaza? I thought it was pretty clear I was talking about Jewish settlers in Palestinian territory. And my numbers are dated, its over 500,000 now. [Israeli settlement - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/980 "2014-08-01T16:15:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, no you don’t. Example: how do you know “hundreds of children are being killed”? Because Hamas reports it. Can you find independent confirmation that does not just repeat what Hamas says? If children includes boys under the age of 19 then aren’t both sides saying it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=50)