# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 52
**Author:** ![rock\_party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@rock\_party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rock_party)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1021 "2014-08-03T14:42:23Z")
Proportionality… If one side has vowed your complete annihilation, and they’re using every resource available to them to do so, it would be proportionate for you to do the same. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1022 "2014-08-03T15:29:17Z")
> [@rock\_party](#): > > Proportionality… > > If one side has vowed your complete annihilation, and they’re using every resource available > to them to do so, it would be proportionate for you to do the same. Yep, fight threats of genocide with actual genocide! That’s the spirit. ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1023 "2014-08-03T15:30:47Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > So, **Shinna Minna Ma** was saying the problem in this conflict is that Hamas are firing from sites in or near hospitals, schools etc. I’m saying that’s apparently not a problem for the IDF, because they just bomb the school / hospital anyway. Problem solved! And I see nothing wrong with that. This situation will go on forever, unless the Israeli government takes decisive action against Hamas now. I see nothing wrong with going after the Hamas leadership in Qatar as well. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1024 "2014-08-03T15:44:19Z")
> [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](#): > > And I see nothing wrong with that. This situation will go on forever, unless the Israeli government takes decisive action against Hamas now. I see nothing wrong with going after the Hamas leadership in Qatar as well. That is of course completely despicable. Not surprising from a Settler. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1025 "2014-08-03T15:55:48Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Note that the two "them"s in your sentence are not the same. The first is enemy combatants, and the other is innocent civilians, including, at the moment, a disproportionate number of children. > > So indeed yes the responsibility falls on Israel not to kill _them_. And yes, I am treating children like children. And thus you demonstrate why Hamas’ strategy works, and why they will continue to employ it, and why more children will die. ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1026 "2014-08-03T16:06:26Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > That is of course completely despicable. Not surprising from a Settler. So I guess just letting Hamas live to fire rockets indiscriminately and dig tunnels to use to slaughter those living in communities near the border is just fine and dandy. Gee, that’s swell of you. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1027 "2014-08-03T16:11:46Z")
> [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](#): > > So I guess just letting Hamas live to fire rockets indiscriminately and dig tunnels to use to slaughter those living in communities near the border is just fine and dandy. Gee, that’s swell of you. So it’s either that or kill children is it? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1028 "2014-08-03T16:26:59Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > So it’s either that or kill children is it? To put it bluntly, yes. But prove me wrong. Show me, in the history of the world, a military operation of any size against an enemy in urban environment that didn’t kill children. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1029 "2014-08-03T16:35:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > To put it bluntly, yes. But prove me wrong. Show me, in the history of the world, a military operation of any size against an enemy in urban environment that didn’t kill children. So we might as well get rid of the pretense then and just bomb schools, eh? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1030 "2014-08-03T16:42:40Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > So it’s either that or kill children is it? Why do you hate Israelis children? Hamas is repeatedly trying to murder Israelis children while using Palestinian children as human shields. Hamas obviously hates children but apparently finds them useful. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1031 "2014-08-03T16:45:40Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > So we might as well get rid of the pretense then and just bomb schools, eh? No. We might as well pursue the military objectives while trying to minimize civilian casualties. Like Israel has been doing. ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1032 "2014-08-03T16:49:37Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > So it’s either that or kill children is it? It seems that’s the way Hamas wants it, and it doesn’t seem to bother them any. It’s not as if the “leadership” is offering to use themselves instead of the kids as human shields, unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1033 "2014-08-03T17:30:53Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > So we might as well get rid of the pretense then and just bomb schools, eh? I think part of the reason people are arguing with you is that you know what you don’t want Israel to do, but what should they do? How should they respond to missile attacks and crossborder tunnels? ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1034 "2014-08-03T17:32:11Z")
> [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](#): > > It seems that’s the way Hamas wants it, and it doesn’t seem to bother them any. It’s not as if the “leadership” is offering to use themselves instead of the kids as human shields, unfortunately. Yep of course when the IDF kill children, it’s always somebody elses fault ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1035 "2014-08-03T17:37:57Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > Yep of course when the IDF kill children, it’s always somebody elses fault When US killed children in Serbia/Kosovo, whose fault was it? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1036 "2014-08-03T17:52:18Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Yep, fight threats of genocide with actual genocide! That’s the spirit. Or: fight attempts at genocide with – the minimum amount of force that’d stop 'em? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1037 "2014-08-03T18:14:05Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > Yep of course when the IDF kill children, it’s always somebody elses fault when Hamas deliberately surrounds itself with children then yes, they would be the “somebody else”. Hamas isn’t an invading force operating within Palestine, they were voted in and have the support of the populace. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1038 "2014-08-03T18:32:56Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Yep, fight threats of genocide with actual genocide! That’s the spirit. Calling something “genocide” that is very clearly not a genocide only cheapens the term. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1039 "2014-08-03T18:35:14Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > So we might as well get rid of the pretense then and just bomb schools, eh? If the schools are where Hamas is staging their attacks from, then yes. There is no pretense here. It’s what’s happening now, and rightfully so. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1040 "2014-08-03T18:41:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > when Hamas deliberately surrounds itself with children then yes, they would be the “somebody else”. > > Hamas isn’t an invading force operating within Palestine, they were voted in and have the support of the populace. Of course there’s no actual evidence that Hamas deliberately surround themselves with children - the actual charges are mainly that they operate in urban areas (a bit like the IDF, eh), whereas the IDF have handcuffed children to APVs to protect themselves, making this a fairly egregious piece of double-speak. Of course there can never be any question of proportionality or necessity or specifics. Once the IDF say it’s Hamas’s fault it doesn’t matter what they do, because it’s Hamas’s fault. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=51) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=53)