# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 53
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1041 "2014-08-03T18:50:16Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > Of course there’s no actual evidence that Hamas deliberately surround themselves with children > **[Israel Condemning Persists Even as UN Official Admits Hamas Uses Their Buildings](https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/07/31/israel-shaming-persists-even-as-un-admits-hamas-uses-un-areas-for-rocket-launches/)** > > A senior UN official, UN OCHA director, John Ging, confirms what the IDF and other informed experts have been saying all along, but to little avail. In a | CBC NEWS ANCHOR: The Israeli government has said repeatedly that Hamas is using human shields, they are using UN schools, hospitals – not only, by the way, to store weapons – I know 3 UN-run schools have been found with munitions stored in them, as weapons depots – but in the UN’s experience, \*\*is Hamas or militant groups, Islamic Jihad, are they launching rockets nearby these shelters, these UN schools? Are they using it essentially as a shelter? JOHN GING: Yes, the armed groups are firing their rockets into Israel from the vicinity of UN facilities and residential areas, absolutely.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1042 "2014-08-03T18:50:22Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > Of course there’s no actual evidence that Hamas deliberately surround themselves with children - the actual charges are mainly that they operate in urban areas (a bit like the IDF, eh), whereas the IDF have handcuffed children to APVs to protect themselves, making this a fairly egregious piece of double-speak. . . . They put rockets in school building basements, and they fire rockets from urban neighborhoods. That is close enough to literally “surrounding themselves with children” to justify the metaphorical language. It isn’t double-speak. It’s the hellish truth. Hamas are monsters that way. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1043 "2014-08-03T18:59:51Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > Of course there’s no actual evidence that Hamas deliberately surround themselves with children - the actual charges are mainly that they operate in urban areas It is impossible to take this claim seriously when on three seperate occasions UNRWA have found Hamas weapons stored in schools. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1044 "2014-08-03T19:02:40Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > They put rockets in school building basements, and they fire rockets from urban neighborhoods. > > That is close enough to literally “surrounding themselves with children” to justify the metaphorical language. > > It isn’t double-speak. It’s the hellish truth. Hamas are monsters that way. Not really as the use of “surrounding themselves with children” hardly paints an accurate picture and is simply used to reprehensively justify the indiscriminate killing of the IDF. As I pointed out it was IDF policy (for some units) to literally use Palestinian civilians and in particular children as human shields - i.e. to force them to walk infront of armed soldiers or to make them enter houses that might be booby trapped. This was outlawed by the Israeli Supreme Court a few years ago, but it has been documented to happen several times since. Where does that leave the IDF? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1045 "2014-08-03T19:11:54Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > Not really as the use of “surrounding themselves with children” hardly paints an accurate picture and is simply used to reprehensively justify the indiscriminate killing of the IDF. > > As I pointed out it was IDF policy (for some units) to literally use Palestinian civilians and in particular children as human shields - i.e. to force them to walk infront of armed soldiers or to make them enter houses that might be booby trapped. This was outlawed by the Israeli Supreme Court a few years ago, but it has been documented to happen several times since. Where does that leave the IDF? Respectfully, if you don’t see putting rockets in schools and shelters as using human shields then you really have no concept of reality or logic. As to the IDF units who did that, they were clearly guilty of war crimes. I’m not sure your point. No one here is saying they haven’t. Putting settlers in occupied territory are also war crimes. If you’re under the impression that those criticizing Hamas are all apologists for Israel or even supporters of Israel, you’re sorely mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1046 "2014-08-03T19:51:54Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > Not really as the use of “surrounding themselves with children” hardly paints an accurate picture and is simply used to reprehensively justify the indiscriminate killing of the IDF. The IDF is not “indiscriminately” killing civilians in Gaza. At worst, Israel is guilty of not taking enough precautions to protect civilians. There is an ocean of hyperbole between that, and “indiscriminate killing”. > [@](#): > > As I pointed out it was IDF policy (for some units) to literally use Palestinian civilians and in particular children as human shields - i.e. to force them to walk infront of armed soldiers or to make them enter houses that might be booby trapped. This was outlawed by the Israeli Supreme Court a few years ago, but it has been documented to happen several times since. Where does that leave the IDF? I haven’t heard of this happening, but if it’s true then those units are guilty of war crimes, and the people who made those decisions ought to be tried. Was this practice widespread? Was it a standard strategy, or was it something rogue commanders did? Was anyone in the IDF ever punished for using these tactics? I would appreciate if you can provide a cite. The only ones I could find are at least ten years old. I did find an article about a case where Israeli soldiers ordered a civilian to deliver an ultimatum of surrender to a man they wanted to arrest. The civilian was then murdered by Palestinian gunmen accusing him of “collaboration” while he was delivering the message. I would agree that the IDF shouldn’t use this strategy, and civilians should never be ordered to do any type of military task. However, I think it falls short of deserving the term “human shield.” ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1047 "2014-08-03T20:35:53Z")
“B-but the children.” Are you guys for real right now? Neither side has much incentive to change their behavior. Palestine isn’t deterred by getting its ass kicked. Israel can do whatever, they won’t lose the support of the U.S., or get attacked by a UN coalition, or have crushing sanctions placed on them. You could try to criticize their strategy and say they’re breeding future terrorists. But they’ll get bombed in 10-15 years all the same. The Palestinian’s attacks are the least impressive genocide attempt of all time, so it’s not like they hold any cards. All told, it’s a nice status quo. I’m sure someone somewhere is making serious bank. Send it into overtime! ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1048 "2014-08-03T23:31:07Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Or: fight attempts at genocide with – the minimum amount of force that’d stop 'em? > [@Mosier](#): > > Calling something “genocide” that is very clearly not a genocide only cheapens the term. I was responding to **rock party** ’s point that if an enemy vows your annihilation, you should do the same (note that I actually quoted him/her). Not saying that what Israel is doing constitutes genocide (yet). ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1049 "2014-08-03T23:41:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > To put it bluntly, yes. But prove me wrong. Show me, in the history of the world, a military operation of any size against an enemy in urban environment that didn’t kill children. There’s a difference though from accidentally killing children you didn’t know were there, and knowingly bombing a school because you suspect Hamas soldiers are sheltering there. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1050 "2014-08-03T23:48:32Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > There’s a difference though from accidentally killing children you didn’t know were there, and knowingly bombing a school because you suspect Hamas soldiers are sheltering there. Except that never happened. For example, the latest incident: Israel targeted (and killed) two terrorists on a motorbike. At the moment they were hit they happened to be passing a UNRWA school, so some people in the school were killed as well. Now - UN already admitted that Hamas shoots rockets from immediate vicinity of schools, using them as a shelter. So when the terrorists get hit, in that immediate vicinity - don’t complain. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1051 "2014-08-04T03:24:22Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Are you suggesting that Hamas has attacked Israel in response to Jewish settlements in the West Bank? I’m suggesting that Israel’s pulling 8000 settlers (out of over 400,000 settlers in Palestinain land (for their own reasons) is vastly overplayed by the zionists. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1052 "2014-08-04T03:34:10Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’m suggesting that Israel’s pulling 8000 settlers (out of over 400,000 settlers in Palestinain land (for their own reasons) is vastly overplayed by the zionists. Why do you keep saying “the zionists(sic)” instead of “the Israelis” or “the Jews”? If you use an ethnic term “the Palestinians” in regards to one side in this conflict, why do you use a political term regarding the other? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1053 "2014-08-04T03:35:10Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Yes. The two issues did not need to be linked. They weren’t linked at the time of the agreement to make the withdrawal. Israel and the PA agreed to a peace in Gaza. > > Then Hamas got elected and broke the agreement. > > This does not make some of us feel confident in the integrity of future agreements. Really? There was quid pro quo? Hamas agreed to peace if Israel withdrew from Gaza? Did the PA agree to peace if they withdrew from Gaza? Or was this a UNILATERAL withdrawal? > **[Road map for peace](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_map_for_peace#The_plan)** > > The roadmap for peace or road map for peace (Hebrew: מפת הדרכים Mapa had'rakhim, Arabic: خارطة طريق السلام Khāriṭa ṭarīq as-salāmu) was a plan to resolve the Israeli–Palestinian conflict proposed by the Quartet on the Middle East: the United States, the European Union, Russia and the United Nations. The principles of the plan, originally drafted by U.S. Foreign Service Officer Donald Blome, were first outlined by U.S. President George W. Bush in a speech on 24 June 2002, in which he called for... > **[Israeli disengagement from the Gaza Strip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%27s_unilateral_disengagement_plan)** > > In 2005, 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip and four Israeli settlements in the West Bank were unilaterally dismantled. Israeli settlers and army evacuated from inside the Gaza Strip, redeploying its military along the border. The disengagement was conducted unilaterally by Israel; in particular, Israel rejected any coordination or orderly hand-over to the Palestinian Authority. Despite the disengagement, the Gaza Strip is still considered to be occupied under international law. > The dis... ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1054 "2014-08-04T03:36:56Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Why do you keep saying “the zionists(sic)” instead of “the Israelis” or “the Jews”? > > If you use an ethnic term “the Palestinians” in regards to one side in this conflict, why do you use a political term regarding the other? But I do use the term Israelis. In fact I use it in that exact same post you are criticizing. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1055 "2014-08-04T03:48:41Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > But I do use the term Israelis. In fact I use it in that exact same post you are criticizing. So why did you say “the Zionists”? I don’t believe I’ve ever seen you reference “Arab nationalists” or “Palestinian nationalists”. Why is that? Also, I wasn’t “criticizing” your post, I was asking a question. Please answer. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Why_Bother)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1056 "2014-08-04T04:55:29Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > There’s a difference though from accidentally killing children you didn’t know were there, and knowingly bombing a school because you suspect Hamas soldiers are sheltering there. Israel warns civilians that bombing is imminent, fires dud missiles, and, where possible phones ahead to give them time to get away. Hamas tells them to [stay put](http://m.smh.com.au/world/thousands-of-gaza-civilians-flee-ignoring-hamas-advice-to-stay-20140714-zt6cs.html). The first time Hamas fired a rocket at Israel, they _did_ ignore it. The second as well, and the third. In fact, they ignored the first _715_ rockets! There’s only one thing which will stop Hamas from using human shields (a strategy they have praised as being "very effective), and that is to lay 100% of the blame on Hamas’s door. Y’know, exactly like we would do if Hamas were shelling us. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1057 "2014-08-04T05:00:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Really? There was quid pro quo? Hamas agreed to peace if Israel withdrew from Gaza? Did the PA agree to peace if they withdrew from Gaza? Or was this a UNILATERAL withdrawal?] . . . Hamas wasn’t in power at the time. Any other counter-factual suggestions you wish to offer? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1058 "2014-08-04T13:57:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So why did you say “the Zionists”? > > I don’t believe I’ve ever seen you reference “Arab nationalists” or “Palestinian nationalists”. > > Why is that? > > Also, I wasn’t “criticizing” your post, I was asking a question. > > Please answer. Because it seems like an appropriate use of the term. But, I can see how it would have been better to say “the Zionists and their supporters” Is there any reason I shouldn’t say Zionists? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1059 "2014-08-04T14:06:46Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Hamas wasn’t in power at the time. Any other counter-factual suggestions you wish to offer? Yeah I know, I was wondering if you did. So, the pullout was not quid pro quo for anything and yet you say there was some sort of agreement for withdrawal. An agreement that Hamas broke when they got elected. So how the fuck did they break an agreement that they were not a part of and what agreement are you talking about? I keep hearing the Israel apologists talk about how the withdrawal was unilateral (as if it was some sort of humanitarian act of charity that everyone needs to give Israel moral benny points for). And now it was a quid pro quo consideration for an agreement that Hamas broke? Well, which was it? Was it unilateral or was it in consideration for an agreement? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1060 "2014-08-04T14:48:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Except that never happened. For example, the latest incident: Israel targeted (and killed) two terrorists on a motorbike. At the moment they were hit they happened to be passing a UNRWA school, so some people in the school were killed as well. Now - UN already admitted that Hamas shoots rockets from immediate vicinity of schools, using them as a shelter. So when the terrorists get hit, in that immediate vicinity - don’t complain. So Israel knowingly bombed close enough to a school to cause dozens of fatalities there. And if the terrorists had been in the school, they would have just bombed it directly. So other that conceding exactly what I was just saying, what is your point? > [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > There’s only one thing which will stop Hamas from using human shields (a strategy they have praised as being "very effective), and that is to lay 100% of the blame on Hamas’s door. That would be like destroying a building full of hostages and saying all the deaths are on the head of the hostage-taker. That’s certainly a convenient way of looking at things morally, but a way that few people would relate to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=52) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=54)