# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 55
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1081 "2014-08-04T21:54:35Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I took it as a reference to the other noted use of rockets to bombard civilians - during WW2. The Germans referred to their weapons as “vengence” rockets - hence V-1, V-2. > > [http://battlefield-site.co.uk/v\_weapons.htm](http://battlefield-site.co.uk/v_weapons.htm) Oh Geeez. Now the Palestinians are nazis?:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1082 "2014-08-04T22:05:55Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No, if you start referring to one side as “the Zionists” and the other side as “the Palestinian nationalists” or “the Islamic radicals” it’s makes a coherent juxtaposition. OK, thats a good point. The part where I get tripped up is that Zionists are oppressing all the Palestinians, not just the Islamic radicals or palestinian nationalists. Just as the Islamic radicals are shooting rockets at all Israelis not just the Zionists. Some part of me thinks that Palestinians had little to no part in the rise of Zionists. While zionists played a part in the rise of some of the islamic radicalism. Is this wrong? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1083 "2014-08-04T22:07:32Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > OK, thats a good point. The part where I get tripped up is that Zionists are oppressing all the Palestinians, not just the Islamic radicals or palestinian nationalists. Just as the Islamic radicals are shooting rockets at all Israelis not just the Zionists. > > Some part of me thinks that Palestinians had little to no part in the rise of Zionists. While zionists played a part in the rise of some of the islamic radicalism. Is this wrong? Yes, that’s wrong. Was there anything else? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1084 "2014-08-04T22:11:35Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Israel has a right to defend itself. They are trying to take out the sources of the rocket attacks. The little shits in Hamas are hiding the rockets behind civilians for the sole purpose of getting propaganda to use against Israel. > > This will end with either a total cease-fire on both sides, or Israel is going to be forced to kill everyone in the Gaza area and flatten it into rubble. I hate to say it, but option 2 is probably going to be what happens, because Hamas won’t deal honestly. Maybe you’re right and Israel will just take its diplomatic lumps and just flatten Gaza and salt the earth. The other Arab states don’t really seem to be willing to confront Israel and The US umbrella of protection might be enough to prevent international retribution for a fait accompli. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1085 "2014-08-04T22:13:50Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > International agreements are inherited when governments change. When Clinton left and Bush took office, that didn’t end all of the U.S.'s treaty obligations. So which international agreement are you talking about? When did the government of Palestine agree to some sort of quid pro quo in exchange for the unilateral withdrawal of 2% of the settlers on Palestinian land? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1086 "2014-08-04T22:16:36Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Maybe you’re right and Israel will just take its diplomatic lumps and just flatten Gaza and salt the earth. The other Arab states don’t really seem to be willing to confront Israel and The US umbrella of protection might be enough to prevent international retribution for a fait accompli. Most of the other Arab states in the region don’t look favorably at groups like Hamas…in fact, most of them are scared shitless by them because of how the hate of Hamas resonates with their own more radical population. They may (_snort_) not like Israel (or the US for that matter), but just look at Egypt’s establishments reaction to the MB and you will see why very few countries are lining up to support Hamas, and in fact many have stepped up to condemn their latest rather transparent attempt to keep the fires burning. This has less to do with confronting Israel or the supposed US umbrella of protection. You seriously…seriously…need to education on this subject before ranting about it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1087 "2014-08-04T22:17:17Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > OK, thats a good point. The part where I get tripped up is that Zionists are oppressing all the Palestinians, not just the Islamic radicals or palestinian nationalists. Just as the Islamic radicals are shooting rockets at all Israelis not just the Zionists. > > Some part of me thinks that Palestinians had little to no part in the rise of Zionists. While zionists played a part in the rise of some of the islamic radicalism. Is this wrong? Yes you’re wrong. “Zionism” had little to do with the rise of Islamic radicalism? So, why do you you the term “Zionists” to refer to the Israelis but not “Palestinian nationalists” to refer to the Palestinians? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1088 "2014-08-04T22:17:57Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Yes, that’s wrong. Was there anything else? Why is it wrong? I don’t recall any islamic radicals calling for the destruction of israel before the creation of the state of israel. Heck, I don’t recall a lot of antisemitic sentiment in the area (at least compared to the rest of the world) before the zionist movement. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1089 "2014-08-04T22:19:09Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Most of the other Arab states in the region don’t look favorably at groups like Hamas…in fact, most of them are scared shitless by them because of how the hate of Hamas resonates with their own more radical population. They may (_snort_) not like Israel (or the US for that matter), but just look at Egypt’s establishments reaction to the MB and you will see why very few countries are lining up to support Hamas, and in fact many have stepped up to condemn their latest rather transparent attempt to keep the fires burning. This has less to do with confronting Israel or the supposed US umbrella of protection. > > You seriously…seriously…need to education on this subject before ranting about it. None of this is news to me. Why would you think it is? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1090 "2014-08-04T22:21:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why is it wrong? I don’t recall any islamic radicals calling for the destruction of israel before the creation of the state of israel. Heck, I don’t recall a lot of antisemitic sentiment in the area (at least compared to the rest of the world) before the zionist movement. That’s because you don’t know much about this subject, frankly. There were plenty of riots and anti-Jewish pogroms in the region prior to the establishment of Israel, which is actually a fairly recent thing. Just by saying what you say here and elsewhere it’s clear that you are ranting about stuff that you really don’t know that much about. Instead of ranting, educate yourself on the subject and you will see that your narrative of the poor Palestinians being deprived of their land by evil Jews bent on the creation of their own homeland is only one side of the story…and not a very accurate narrative of how this mess actually got started. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1091 "2014-08-04T22:21:53Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes you’re wrong. “Zionism” had little to do with the rise of Islamic radicalism? > > So, why do you you the term “Zionists” to refer to the Israelis but not “Palestinian nationalists” to refer to the Palestinians? Because I think that a lot of Palestinians in refugee camps in the area might be satisfied to just become citizens of places like Jordan (although Jordan doesn’t seem to want them as citizens). I also don’t think all Israelis believe Israel MUST retain its Jewish nature. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1092 "2014-08-04T22:22:57Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > None of this is news to me. Why would you think it is? Um, because what you said there indicated that it IS news to you. Either that or you are deliberately attempting to provoke people by saying stuff that you know to be half truths at best when you claim to know more. Which is it? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1093 "2014-08-04T23:38:36Z")
On Israel’s nature: [Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel:](http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/declaration%20of%20establishment%20of%20state%20of%20israel.aspx) > [@](#): > > . . . it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations . . . . How has that played out? The Deputy Speaker of the 16th, 17th, 18th Knessetts was Arab (and he continues to sit in the 19th Knessett). A permanent judge of Israel’s Supreme court is an Arab. Last year’s valedictorian at Israel’s top medical school was an Arab woman. On Gaza’s nature: [Hamas Covenant](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp) > [@](#): > > Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory). > > . . . . > > There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith: > > “The people of Syria are Allah’s lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation.” How has that played out? [A Jihad to annihilate Israel and Jews.](http://www.adl.org/anti-semitism/muslim-arab-world/c/hamas-in-their-own-words.html) One of the things about self-determination is the need to make good choices. Collectively, the people of Gaza have made a very bad choice in electing terrorists. When the European Union, the U.K., Canada, Australia, Japan, and some dude named Uncle Sam, as well as your closest neighbours Israel, Egypt and Jordan, all declare Hamas to be a terrorist organization, it’s a pretty good indication that voting them in to power so they could go on their Jihad was an exceptionally dumb decision. One of the things about making bad choices is having to live with the repercussions, which when it comes to the Jihad backfiring, means that many people of Gaza are dying, despite Israel’s best efforts to limit collateral casualties in its defence against Hamas. It is a tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1094 "2014-08-05T00:14:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > What do “maps of Gaza” have to do with it. You’re trying to hit a fast-moving target. Accidentally, you hit it in front of the school. Because, like I said, they knowingly blew up a large portion of a school. The IDF will of course be following the movements of moving targets on a map, and they will know their weapons’ blast radius. > [@doorhinge](#): > > Bank robbers can take hostages by force. Police depts have the luxury of waiting for the bank robbers to give up or to respond with force if the bank robbers begin killing hostages or firing at the police. And “respond with force” still doesn’t mean blow up everyone including the hostages. > [@](#): > > Hamas can create human shields by force or by asking for volunteers. Volunteers would not be considered innocent victims. If Israel has any evidence this is happening, then that can strengthen their case. At the moment it sounds like the kind of thing someone would say to justify the continued bombing. And of course we know it’s not the case every time: the UN can vouch that the kids in the school were kids, in a school, for example. > [@](#): > > You seem to be under the impression that Israel must not attack the actual rocket storage and launch sites chosen by Hamas. Israel can, and is, doing whatever it likes. But earlier in the thread several people were wondering out loud why few countries support Israel. Well, there’s one answer: because Israel’s recent military actions, and the attempted justification of them, many people find morally reprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1095 "2014-08-05T01:07:34Z")
As part of it’s fight with Fatah, Hamas has been delaying a general Palestinian election since 2010, but has agreed with Fatah to hold one between now and this fall. I wonder if there will indeed be an election in Gaza, and if so, what the effect of the war on Israel will have. Will people be sick of the ongoing killing and vote for a government that while pressing hard for greater self-determination is not actively fighting a jihad against Israel, or will people be so vengeful against Israel that they will confirm their desire to continue the jihad and re-elect Hamas? This puts great weight on Israel to try limit collateral casualties as much as practicable, for the more Palestinians Israel kills, the greater the odds of Hamas staying in power, and the greater the odds of Israelis who are Palestinian Arabs coming into conflict with their Jewish countrymen. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1096 "2014-08-05T01:33:52Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Um, because what you said there indicated that it IS news to you. Either that or you are deliberately attempting to provoke people by saying stuff that you know to be half truths at best when you claim to know more. Which is it? This seems like a veiled attempt at calling me a troll but how is this statement provocative: “Maybe you’re right and Israel will just take its diplomatic lumps and just flatten Gaza and salt the earth. The other Arab states don’t really seem to be willing to confront Israel and The US umbrella of protection might be enough to prevent international retribution for a fait accompli.” Am I the only one that sees how this could lead to peace? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1097 "2014-08-05T01:46:43Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > On Israel’s nature: [Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel:](http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/declaration%20of%20establishment%20of%20state%20of%20israel.aspx) > How has that played out? The Deputy Speaker of the 16th, 17th, 18th Knessetts was Arab (and he continues to sit in the 19th Knessett). A permanent judge of Israel’s Supreme court is an Arab. Last year’s valedictorian at Israel’s top medical school was an Arab woman. And if that arab woman wanted to marry another arab from the West Bank, then can they live together as a family in Israel by right? I suppose the same would apply if a Jewish woman tried to marry an arab man from the west bank but it seems to me that this isn’t exactly equality. > [@](#): > > On Gaza’s nature: > [Hamas Covenant](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp) > > How has that played out? [A Jihad to annihilate Israel and Jews.](http://www.adl.org/anti-semitism/muslim-arab-world/c/hamas-in-their-own-words.html) And yet they send mixed messages about the peace process (which admittedly is not ideal or really even anything that would give Israel much comfort). > [@](#): > > One of the things about self-determination is the need to make good choices. Collectively, the people of Gaza have made a very bad choice in electing terrorists. There has been one election since 2005. ONE! > [@](#): > > When the European Union, the U.K., Canada, Australia, Japan, and some dude named Uncle Sam, as well as your closest neighbours Israel, Egypt and Jordan, all declare Hamas to be a terrorist organization, it’s a pretty good indication that voting them in to power so they could go on their Jihad was an exceptionally dumb decision. Could we say the same about the settlement activity in Palestinian territory? Isn’t there pretty universal condemnation of that stuff too? > [@](#): > > One of the things about making bad choices is having to live with the repercussions, which when it comes to the Jihad backfiring, means that many people of Gaza are dying, despite Israel’s best efforts to limit collateral casualties in its defence against Hamas. It is a tragedy. Like I’ve said before, Israel is entitled to do pretty much everything I have seen them do in response to the rocket attacks. I’ve been a little busy so I’m not up to date on every accusation of war crimes committed during the invasion but I suspect that it will be isolated incidents and I will be more concerned about how israel helps clean shit up after they blow everything up. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1098 "2014-08-05T02:50:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > AFAICT they are already trying to. This task is made difficult by > [ul][li]The fact that Gaza is pretty damn crowded together, and surgical precision is not generally possible, and[/li][li]The fact that Hamas is trying to maximize civilian casualties, by stashing its rocket launchers and so forth in hospitals and schools and such, and[/li][li]The fact that there isn’t often somewhere else to go when Israel wants to blow something up, and[/li][li]Hamas tries to keep their own civilians in place despite Israeli warnings, because \*\*dead Israeli civilians for some reason don’t get the same attention as dead Palestinians civilians. \*\* [/ul][/li]Regards, > Shodan They don’t? So in the current conflict - how many dead Israeli citizens are there compared to how many Palestinian citizens so that we can do a comparison? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1099 "2014-08-05T02:54:44Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Because, like I said, they knowingly blew up a large portion of a school. And like I said, you have no way of proving the “knowingly” part. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1100 "2014-08-05T04:18:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And like I said, you have no way of proving the “knowingly” part. I just outlined my reasoning, which part do you dispute? Are you saying the IDF don’t have or don’t use a map of Gaza? Or they weren’t aware that a school was being there, despite being told on 17 separate occasions by the UN that a school was there? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=54) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=56)