# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 56
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1101 "2014-08-05T04:21:02Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I just outlined my reasoning, which part do you dispute? The part where you insist that IDF, when targeting someone on a speeding motorbike, can simultaneously and in real time check where UNRWA schools are in relation to that motorbike. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1102 "2014-08-05T05:58:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The part where you insist that IDF, when targeting someone on a speeding motorbike, can simultaneously and in real time check where UNRWA schools are in relation to that motorbike. Cite? Yes imagine if we had the software to relate changing position data to an electronic map in real-time. Why, such wondrous technology could revolutionize navigation. No, I don’t have a cite that the IDF has access to such modern marvels. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1103 "2014-08-05T06:41:54Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Yes imagine if we had the software to relate changing position data to an electronic map in real-time. Why, such wondrous technology could revolutionize navigation. > > No, I don’t have a cite that the IDF has access to such modern marvels. So, as I said, you have no way of proving the “knowingly” part. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1104 "2014-08-05T10:24:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So, as I said, you have no way of proving the “knowingly” part. I haven’t claimed to have proof of anything. But it’s a reasonable assumption, and you given any reason why it is not. Also, let’s put it this way: Either the IDF knew what they were doing, or they don’t know where their bombs are going relative to the map. Take your pick, they both imply a callous disregard for civilian life. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1105 "2014-08-05T13:23:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Oh Geeez. Now the Palestinians are nazis?:rolleyes: No, it is just answering the question as to the origin of the NAME of the weapon. If the Nazis called a type of gun an “assault rifle”, calling that same type of gun an “assault rifle” in the hands of someone else isn’t the same as calling those people “Nazis”. In any event, it is Hamas who is shooting the rockets, not “Palestinains” en mass. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1106 "2014-08-05T14:31:34Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I haven’t claimed to have proof of anything. But it’s a reasonable assumption, and you given any reason why it is not. > > Also, let’s put it this way: Either the IDF knew what they were doing, or they don’t know where their bombs are going relative to the map. Take your pick, they both imply a callous disregard for civilian life. Wrong. They are eliminating a fast moving terrorist target. They accidentally have civilian casualties while doing that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1107 "2014-08-05T14:36:39Z")
I don’t believe the IDF deliberately targets civilians, and I believe they expend effort to avoid killing civilians. But do they expend enough effort? Are they as careful as they possibly could be? I’m sure the IDF is not perfect and has made mistakes – have they admitted these mistakes, and taken action (including, possibly, criminal action) towards those who have made mistakes that resulted in civilian deaths? I don’t know the answers to these questions, but they are reasonable questions to ask. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1108 "2014-08-05T14:52:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t believe the IDF deliberately targets civilians, and I believe they expend effort to avoid killing civilians. But do they expend enough effort? Are they as careful as they possibly could be? I’m sure the IDF is not perfect and has made mistakes – have they admitted these mistakes, and taken action (including, possibly, criminal action) towards those who have made mistakes that resulted in civilian deaths? You know that US hit on the Chinese embassy? Has US taken criminal action towards those who made the mistake that resulted in that? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1109 "2014-08-05T14:56:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You know that US hit on the Chinese embassy? Has US taken criminal action towards those who made the mistake that resulted in that? Maybe we should (or maybe not, despending on the circumstances). Are you saying these questions are not reasonable, and that we should just trust that the IDF is doing everything properly because they say so? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1110 "2014-08-05T15:01:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Maybe we should (or maybe not, despending on the circumstances). Are you saying these questions are not reasonable, and that we should just trust that the IDF is doing everything properly because they say so? I am saying you know it by the results. The ratio of civilian to militant casualties in IDF incursions into Gaza is around 1:1. That’s an absolutely amazing figure, considering the fact that militants hide among civilians. Shows tremendous effort that IDF makes not to incur civilian casualties. Here is a [rare report of a rocket being fired right next to the hotel](http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/ndtv-exclusive-how-hamas-assembles-and-fires-rockets-571033) where foreign journalists were. Note: not rare because the event is rare, but rare because journalists (as they admit themselves, even in that report) are usually intimidated into not reporting on it. If the IDF fired back and civilians were hurt, would you seek “criminal action”? Would you criticize? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1111 "2014-08-05T15:20:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I am saying you know it by the results. The ratio of civilian to militant casualties in IDF incursions into Gaza is around 1:1. That’s an absolutely amazing figure, considering the fact that militants hide among civilians. Shows tremendous effort that IDF makes not to incur civilian casualties. Perhaps, but does that mean they couldn’t make it even better? Is 1:1 the absolute perfect ratio of which nothing better can possibly be hoped for? > [@](#): > > Here is a [rare report of a rocket being fired right next to the hotel](http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/ndtv-exclusive-how-hamas-assembles-and-fires-rockets-571033) where foreign journalists were. Note: not rare because the event is rare, but rare because journalists (as they admit themselves, even in that report) are usually intimidated into not reporting on it. > > If the IDF fired back and civilians were hurt, would you seek “criminal action”? Would you criticize? Probably not. But that doesn’t mean this is so for every single action of the IDF. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1112 "2014-08-05T15:40:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Perhaps, but does that mean they couldn’t make it even better? Is 1:1 the absolute perfect ratio of which nothing better can possibly be hoped for? I think it’s about the best that can be achieved under the circumstances. Compare it to other advanced military forces’ ratios. It’s lower. Just as an example: in the Libya campaign (see [Casualties of the Libyan civil war (2011) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Libyan_Civil_War)) the UN’s Human Rights Council [sang praises](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/03/03/world/africa/united-nations-report-on-libya.html?_r=0) to NATO operations, reporting that “NATO told the Commission that it had a standard of “zero expectation” of death or injury to civilians, and that no targets were struck if there was any reason to believe civilians would be injured or killed by a strike.”. The result: civilians killed: 70 (maybe 72). Libyan government soldiers killed: 55. (from that Wiki page, if you add up all killed in NATO strikes). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1113 "2014-08-05T15:48:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I think it’s about the best that can be achieved under the circumstances. Compare it to other advanced military forces’ ratios. It’s lower. > > Just as an example: in the Libya campaign (see [Casualties of the Libyan civil war (2011) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Libyan_Civil_War)) the UN’s Human Rights Council [sang praises](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/03/03/world/africa/united-nations-report-on-libya.html?_r=0) to NATO operations, reporting that “NATO told the Commission that it had a standard of “zero expectation” of death or injury to civilians, and that no targets were struck if there was any reason to believe civilians would be injured or killed by a strike.”. > > The result: civilians killed: 70 (maybe 72). Libyan government soldiers killed: 55. (from that Wiki page, if you add up all killed in NATO strikes). Okay, but this is territory the IDF should know like the back of its hand. I think we should ask them to do better. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1114 "2014-08-05T15:56:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay, but this is territory the IDF should know like the back of its hand. I think we should ask them to do better. The IDF is not present in that territory, so no, they don’t know it like the back of their hand. Latest figures from the IDF (from [JPost twitter feed](https://twitter.com/Jerusalem_Post/lists/jpost-reporters)): out of 1768 Palestinian fatalities, 750-1000 are militants. I am sure more precise numbers will be available in a few days as IDF does its accounting. By the way: 4762 targets were attacked. Just to give you the scale. Considering the scale and the circumstances, the civilian casualties are amazingly low. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1115 "2014-08-05T15:58:45Z")
In terms of “asking them to do better”, I think this is always good policy when there are civilian deaths. For any conflict with civilian deaths, journalists and others should be skeptical of the claims of any military or government, and continually ask things like “what are you doing to minimize civilian deaths?”, “why was this school destroyed?”, and the like. And they should be skeptical and critical when the answers don’t add up. The IDF, like any big, complex organization, will be perfectly willing to stretch the truth when they think it serves their purposes. I trust the IDF a lot more than Hamas, but I still don’t trust that the IDF won’t make mistakes or even lie to cover up the truth sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1116 "2014-08-05T15:59:19Z")
It might be more effective to ask Hamas to do better, in the sense of not firing rockets from schools and hospitals in the first place. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1117 "2014-08-05T16:02:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The IDF is not present in that territory, so no, they don’t know it like the back of their hand. > > Latest figures from the IDF (from [JPost twitter feed](https://twitter.com/Jerusalem_Post/lists/jpost-reporters)): out of 1768 Palestinian fatalities, 750-1000 are militants. > > I am sure more precise numbers will be available in a few days as IDF does its accounting. > > By the way: 4762 targets were attacked. Just to give you the scale. Considering the scale and the circumstances, the civilian casualties are amazingly low. Other sources have different accounts of the fatalities, in particular which are militants and which are civilians. Palestinian sources have an incentive to call as many casualties “civilians” as possible, of course, but the IDF also has an incentive to call as many casualties “militants” as they can. I certainly don’t accept the IDF’s numbers at face value (and neither do I accept the numbers of the Palestinian sources). Just like the US has an incentive to call as many deaths from drone strikes “terrorists”, and their numbers should not entirely be trusted. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1118 "2014-08-05T16:03:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It might be more effective to ask Hamas to do better, in the sense of not firing rockets from schools and hospitals in the first place. > > Regards, > Shodan Absolutely. Hamas, if you’re reading this, please do better (in fact, please disband and renounce violence). You too, IDF (not the disbanding and renouncing violence part). ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1119 "2014-08-05T16:05:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Other sources have different accounts of the fatalities, in particular which are militants and which are civilians. Palestinian sources have an incentive to call as many casualties “civilians” as possible, of course, but the IDF also has an incentive to call as many casualties “militants” as they can. > > I certainly don’t accept the IDF’s numbers at face value (and neither do I accept the numbers of the Palestinian sources). Just like the US has an incentive to call as many deaths from drone strikes “terrorists”, and their numbers should not entirely be trusted. Again, as I documented several times, IDF reporting of casualties in 2009 was right on the money and eventually confirmed by Hamas. No one else’s was accurate. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1120 "2014-08-05T16:05:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The IDF is not present in that territory, so no, they don’t know it like the back of their hand. Considering the skill and experience of the IDF, even if they are not present in Gaza at the moment, I find it very unlikely that they are not very, very familiar with the territory. If they aren’t very familiar with a neighboring territory with a long history of involvement with security problems for Israel, then they are a very badly run military. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=55) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=57)