# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 57
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1121 "2014-08-05T16:06:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, as I documented several times, IDF reporting of casualties in 2009 was right on the money and eventually confirmed by Hamas. No one else’s was accurate. Hamas agreed with the precise number of militants and civilians killed, and which were which? I’d like to see a cite for this. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1122 "2014-08-05T16:11:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Absolutely. Hamas, if you’re reading this, please do better (in fact, please disband and renounce violence). You too, IDF (not the disbanding and renouncing violence part). I’d love to see Hamas and Israel go at each other verbally in the BBQ Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1123 "2014-08-05T16:45:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Hamas agreed with the precise number of militants and civilians killed, and which were which? I’d like to see a cite for this. > **[How Hamas Wields Gaza's Casualties as Propaganda](https://time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-hamas-palestinian-casualties/)** > > The terrorist group casts Israel’s military as indiscriminate and civilian deaths as disproportionate, but Hamas-affiliated fatality figures should be viewed with suspicion. We have seen this before. A similar dispute over casualty figures occurred during Israel’s “Operation Cast Lead” in the Gaza Strip in January 2009. The Israelis contended that the majority of the fatalities were combatants; the Palestinians claimed they were civilians. The media and international organizations tended to side with the Palestinians. The UN’s own investigatory commission headed by Richard Goldstone, which produced the Goldstone Report, cited PCHR’s figures along with other Palestinian groups providing similar figures. Over a year later, after the news media had moved on, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hammad enumerated Hamas fatalities at 600 to 700, a figure close to the Israeli estimate of 709 and about three times higher than the figure of 236 combatants provided by PCHR in 2009 and cited in the Goldstone Report. If you would like that Hamas cite: [http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=329861](http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=329861) This is probably the fourth time I am providing this info in this thread. Apparently no one notices. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1124 "2014-08-05T16:52:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [How Hamas Wields Gaza's Casualties as Propaganda | TIME](http://time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-hamas-palestinian-casualties/) > > We have seen this before. A similar dispute over casualty figures occurred during Israel’s “Operation Cast Lead” in the Gaza Strip in January 2009. The Israelis contended that the majority of the fatalities were combatants; the Palestinians claimed they were civilians. The media and international organizations tended to side with the Palestinians. The UN’s own investigatory commission headed by Richard Goldstone, which produced the Goldstone Report, cited PCHR’s figures along with other Palestinian groups providing similar figures. Over a year later, after the news media had moved on, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hammad enumerated Hamas fatalities at 600 to 700, a figure close to the Israeli estimate of 709 and about three times higher than the figure of 236 combatants provided by PCHR in 2009 and cited in the Goldstone Report. > > If you would like that Hamas cite: [http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=329861](http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=329861) > > This is probably the fourth time I am providing this info in this thread. Apparently no one notices. That’s not exactly how you characterized it, but thank you. It also demonstrates the shifting motivations of Hamas with regards to casualty numbers – during a conflict, Hamas is motivated to exaggerate the number of civilian casualties (and to minimize the number of militant casualties) to show the IDF in a bad light, while after a conflict they’re often motivated to exaggerate _all_ casualty numbers to make Israel look like the much stronger party. I trust Hamas far less than the IDF, but I still think it’s likely that the IDF occasionally gives into the temptation to classify random dead Gazan man as “militant” rather than “civilian”. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1125 "2014-08-05T18:37:16Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > …And “respond with force” still doesn’t mean blow up everyone including the hostages. Not “everyone”, just enough to end the ongoing threat. Israel has a right to defend itself. Hamas can make the choice to stop firing it’s vengeance weapons into Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1126 "2014-08-05T20:23:13Z")
> [@XT](#): > > That’s because you don’t know much about this subject, frankly. There were plenty of riots and anti-Jewish pogroms in the region prior to the establishment of Israel, which is actually a fairly recent thing. Just by saying what you say here and elsewhere it’s clear that you are ranting about stuff that you really don’t know that much about. > > Instead of ranting, educate yourself on the subject and you will see that your narrative of the poor Palestinians being deprived of their land by evil Jews bent on the creation of their own homeland is only one side of the story…and not a very accurate narrative of how this mess actually got started. Even if I knew asbolutely fucking nothing before I came to this board (and i probably knew much more than teh average American), years of debating this stuff with you guys have given me most of the relevant information that I need on this subject. Too much of the “new informa tion” being presented to me these days is irrelevant trivia. Heck I even offered to read one of these books that Ibn insists you must read before engaging in a debate on the topic IF he could find one that wasn’t biased or overly long. In short, I think what you are doing is argument from authority. If my ignorance was the problem, then you could just point out the critical fact that would undermine all my assumptions and change my mind (I have been known to change my mind on Israel issues before). What vital peice of information do you think I am missing? or am i simply misinformed? What misinformation could you correct that would cure me of my erroneous positions? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1127 "2014-08-05T20:25:10Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > No, it is just answering the question as to the origin of the NAME of the weapon. > > If the Nazis called a type of gun an “assault rifle”, calling that same type of gun an “assault rifle” in the hands of someone else isn’t the same as calling those people “Nazis”. > > In any event, it is Hamas who is shooting the rockets, not “Palestinains” en mass. Well, I know YOU know that but some of the people on your side seem to think the two groups are indistinguishable. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1128 "2014-08-05T20:29:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Even if I knew asbolutely fucking nothing before I came to this board (and i probably knew much more than teh average American), years of debating this stuff with you guys have given me most of the relevant information that I need on this subject. Too much of the “new informa tion” being presented to me these days is irrelevant trivia. Heck I even offered to read one of these books that Ibn insists you must read before engaging in a debate on the topic IF he could find one that wasn’t biased or overly long. > > In short, I think what you are doing is argument from authority. > > If my ignorance was the problem, then you could just point out the critical fact that would undermine all my assumptions and change my mind (I have been known to change my mind on Israel issues before). What vital peice of information do you think I am missing? > > or am i simply misinformed? What misinformation could you correct that would cure me of my erroneous positions? It’s right there in the first part of my statement…there were riots and pogroms against Jews long before there was an Israel. Do you need a cite for that? Clearly you didn’t know this, though anyone who knows anything about this subject knows it, since it’s not exactly a big secret. And yes, knowing the basics IS necessary to actually debate stuff like this, since knowing why and how things got where they are today is essential to meaningful dialogue. You are debating on a subject that you don’t even have a basic understanding of the history and making assertions based on your faulty understanding…and then you get tense when people point this out. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1129 "2014-08-05T21:09:56Z")
Has anyone seen this video by an Indian television channel of Hamas setting up a rocket launch in Gaza near a residential area? > **[Video | Watch: NDTV Exclusive - How Hamas Assembles and Fires Rockets](https://www.ndtv.com/video/news/news/watch-ndtv-exclusive-how-hamas-assembles-and-fires-rockets-332910)** > > Minutes before the 72-hour ceasefire began, this rocket was fired from deep within a civilian zone. (Read more) (Also Read: Five international headlines on NDTV's Hamas exclusive) ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1130 "2014-08-05T21:11:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Here is a [rare report of a rocket being fired right next to the hotel](http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/ndtv-exclusive-how-hamas-assembles-and-fires-rockets-571033) where foreign journalists were. Note: not rare because the event is rare, but rare because journalists (as they admit themselves, even in that report) are usually intimidated into not reporting on it. Whoops, missed this post. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1131 "2014-08-05T21:17:09Z")
The video report is quite interesting for multiple reasons. One is, the rocket site was set up an entire day before it was launched. Second, Israel hadn’t hit back until quite a while after the rocket launch. Long enough that the reporters had gone down from their room to the launch site, and then backed away. More than long enough for anyone at the launch site to have escaped. So it doesn’t appear as though Israel is actually managing to hit the rocket launches fast enough to cause them to be inaccurate, as was being discussed earlier in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1132 "2014-08-05T21:33:06Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > The video report is quite interesting for multiple reasons. One is, the rocket site was set up an entire day before it was launched. Second, Israel hadn’t hit back until quite a while after the rocket launch. Long enough that the reporters had gone down from their room to the launch site, and then backed away. More than long enough for anyone at the launch site to have escaped. So it doesn’t appear as though Israel is actually managing to hit the rocket launches fast enough to cause them to be inaccurate, as was being discussed earlier in the thread. I don’t think you understood the technical details behind that claim. What you have here is a variety of rocket artillery. The rockets are essentially “aimed” by positioning them - they are not sophisticated and lack internal guidance systems. What this means is that “aiming” is usually done by “observing” (usually for rockets, by some sort of forward observer or spy) where the rocket falls, and then launching another from the same spot - correcting the position of launch, if the rocket falls short, over or wide. This means that repeated rockets must be launched from the very same initial set-up, if you want accuracy by this method. Only in that way can mistakes in aim be corrected. What Israeli counter-battery fire does, is prevent the people shooting rockets from repeatedly using the same launch set-up. Thus, they cannot carefully “aim” rockets, using observed fall of previous rockets as a guide. They must fire and move somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1133 "2014-08-05T21:51:16Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I don’t think you understood the technical details behind that claim. > > What you have here is a variety of rocket artillery. The rockets are essentially “aimed” by positioning them - they are not sophisticated and lack internal guidance systems. > > What this means is that “aiming” is usually done by “observing” (usually for rockets, by some sort of forward observer or spy) where the rocket falls, and then launching another from the same spot - correcting the position of launch, if the rocket falls short, over or wide. > > This means that repeated rockets must be launched from the very same initial set-up, if you want accuracy by this method. Only in that way can mistakes in aim be corrected. > > What Israeli counter-battery fire does, is prevent the people shooting rockets from repeatedly using the same launch set-up. Thus, they cannot carefully “aim” rockets, using observed fall of previous rockets as a guide. They must fire and move somewhere else. Thanks. What sort of range do these rockets have? How would an observer from inside Israel report back anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1134 "2014-08-06T07:53:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I trust Hamas far less than the IDF, but I still think it’s likely that the IDF occasionally gives into the temptation to classify random dead Gazan man as “militant” rather than “civilian”. What the IDF do in Gaza is far more disingenuous than that. They will not give any estimates at all for fatalities, until as long as possible has passed: [http://www.timesofisrael.com/why-doesnt-israel-publish-figures-and-details-of-gaza-casualties/](http://www.timesofisrael.com/why-doesnt-israel-publish-figures-and-details-of-gaza-casualties/) “No official Israeli government body releases any information about casualties caused by Israeli airstrikes in real-time. We simply cannot know what we hit, several officials said. In the West Bank, IDF forces are able to ascertain who dies as a result of IDF actions, but since Israel has no military or civilian presence in Gaza, no information is available during or right after a strike. To be sure, the IDF does investigate claims about casualties, but results are usually only released weeks after the hostilities have ended.” This allows them to undermine any criticisms based on high levels of civilian deaths, by just saying that the actual figures are unknown, and accusing any figure given by other parties as being biased. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1135 "2014-08-06T07:54:20Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What you have here is a variety of rocket artillery. The rockets are essentially “aimed” by positioning them - they are not sophisticated and lack internal guidance systems. > > What this means is that “aiming” is usually done by “observing” (usually for rockets, by some sort of forward observer or spy) where the rocket falls, and then launching another from the same spot - correcting the position of launch, if the rocket falls short, over or wide. Basically mortars, then? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1136 "2014-08-06T09:22:03Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Basically mortars, then? Only far less accurate ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1137 "2014-08-06T09:31:50Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Only far less accurate > **[Northern Ireland police arrest man over new IRA mortar bomb attack](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/14/northern-ireland-police-arrest-man-new-ira-mortar-bomb)** > > A 44-year-old is held in connection with attack targeting police that nearly killed family driving past on Falls Road in Belfast Obviously the proportionate response here would have been a series of airstrikes targeting known members of the New IRA. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1138 "2014-08-06T11:53:06Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > The video report is quite interesting for multiple reasons. One is, the rocket site was set up an entire day before it was launched. Second, Israel hadn’t hit back until quite a while after the rocket launch. Long enough that the reporters had gone down from their room to the launch site, and then backed away. More than long enough for anyone at the launch site to have escaped. So it doesn’t appear as though Israel is actually managing to hit the rocket launches fast enough to cause them to be inaccurate, as was being discussed earlier in the thread. In that particular case, no it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1139 "2014-08-06T11:55:06Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > [Northern Ireland police arrest man over new IRA mortar bomb attack | Northern Ireland | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/14/northern-ireland-police-arrest-man-new-ira-mortar-bomb) > > Obviously the proportionate response here would have been a series of airstrikes targeting known members of the New IRA. Or the actual definition of a proportionate response, which is “use only the amount of force necessary to stop the attack.” ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/1140 "2014-08-06T12:22:24Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Or the actual definition of a proportionate response, which is “use only the amount of force necessary to stop the attack.” So airstrikes in Gaza stopped these mortar attacks? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=56) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=58)