# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/101 "2014-07-11T19:20:08Z")
When I had C-Band satellite TV, I used to watch a Palestinian talk show with the studio in the United States. One fellow who called in screamed, “Freedom caanot be given. It must be taken!” Is there a testosterone/honor/machismo thing going on here? Are both sides trying to convince the other side that they are tougher? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/102 "2014-07-11T19:22:13Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > I’m surprised there isn’t already a thread on this (or maybe I just missed it). Now up to 100 Palestinians in Gaza killed by Israeli airstrikes, and hundreds more injured. [Gaza crisis: Death toll from Israeli strikes 'hits 100' - BBC News](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28263669) > > So far as I understand, the Palestinian rocket fire hasn’t killed any Israelis, but has caused some injuries and property damage. > > Anyone care to defend Israel here? I’m not sure what the right thing for Israel to do here is, but airstrikes against civilian areas can’t be it. Even just in terms of Israeli interests, I don’t see how they’re helping themselves. Having images of dead Palestinian children on the news just alienates their allies and encourages further attacks. The Palestinians insist on firing their V1 and V2 rockets from civilian areas into Israeli in order to kill as many Israelis, civilians and soldiers, as possible. The Israelis are defending themselves. Reminds me of two old sayings - “If you don’t want Hiroshima, don’t start Pearl Harbor” and “Play stupid games, win stupid prizes”. p.s. How do you “encourage” further attacks from an enemy who is already attacking you? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/103 "2014-07-11T19:23:51Z")
> [@Johnny\_Cashless](#): > > And now someone brings up the last 2000 years … My point being you can’t argue about who used to own the joint. There was always someone there before that. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/104 "2014-07-11T19:24:09Z")
This is like Pearl Harbor - who knew? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/105 "2014-07-11T19:25:19Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > My point being you can’t argue about who used to own the joint. There was always someone there before that. I agree. Utterly irrational and divisive. Which is why a lot of people do. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/106 "2014-07-11T19:27:48Z")
> [@Johnny\_Cashless](#): > > On the air strikes, I guess it was time for the periodic rattling of the cage - the very last thing Israel wants is a calm Gaza; that doesn’t serve the agenda at all. What exactly is the “agenda”? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/107 "2014-07-11T19:30:21Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > That isn’t what Hamas is demanding. There is no proof that getting out of settlements - which are in the West Bank and not in Gaza - and the Palestinians obtaining full statehood would, in fact, prevent Hamas from continuing attacks. > > In fact, history would tend to demonstrate the reverse. Israel used to occupy Gaza and had settlements there. Ariel Sharon famously handed Gaza back to the Palestinians and abandoned the settlements in Gaza. Rather than bringing an end to the attacks, it only exacerbated them. > > To be clear, abandoning settlements & handing over statehood may well be good things in and of themselves - but they are not a realistic “answer” to rocket attacks from Gaza. But if Israel did that, it could have more of World opinion on its side by saying ‘See we gave them a state, and yet they still attack us’ It would appear more justifiable by making the Palestinian leadership appear even more irrational. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/108 "2014-07-11T19:30:43Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Depends. Part of the reason for Hamas ineffectiveness, I have heard, is that the set up a firing location in some civvy’s property, fire a rocket or two, and skedaddle before Israeli counter-battery fire tracks back the missile and blows them to bits. If they were allowed the leasure of setting up a permanent firing post, without fear of retaliation, they would be more accurate and score more hits - or at least, so goes the theory. > > If this is true (and it sounds credible enough), one would expect that this would be as true for the first rocket as for the last. Definitely true; if they knew with certainty that there would be no response and could safely fire repeatedly from a fixed location they could adjust shots based upon where they intended the first rocket to land and where it actually went. Even with a weapon as inherently inaccurate as the rockets they are using this would have a big impact on overall accuracy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/109 "2014-07-11T19:31:21Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > My point being you can’t argue about who used to own the joint. There was always someone there before that. Yes – the Palestinians. They’re not people who moved in after the Jews left, they’re the Jews’ cousins, descended from people who have been living in the region since ancient times. [There’s DNA evidence.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people#DNA_and_genetic_studies) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/110 "2014-07-11T19:36:35Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But if Israel did that, it could have more of World opinion on its side by saying ‘See we gave them a state, and yet they still attack us’ It would appear more justifiable by making the Palestinian leadership appear even more irrational. Israel did, in fact, give them Gaza - a territory Israel used to control (and build settlements in). This has not translated into any noticable increase in world justification for Israeli actions. In fact, from what I know of Israelis, they mostly discount the actual impact of world opinion. The turning point in this process was the world’s actions immediately prior to the Six Day War in 1967. Israel had more or less counted on world pressure to force the Egyptians to back down - for example, by breaking the Egyptian blockade, or by reinforcing UN peacekeepers in the Sinai. Instead, the opposite happened - no blockade-busting happened, and the UN peacekeepers were ordered withdrawn by Egypt - and they left. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/111 "2014-07-11T19:39:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes – the Palestinians. They’re not people who moved in after the Jews left, they’re the Jews’ cousins, descended from people who have been living in the region since ancient times. [There’s DNA evidence.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people#DNA_and_genetic_studies) Blood and soil nationalism, eh? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/112 "2014-07-11T19:40:15Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Definitely true; if they knew with certainty that there would be no response and could safely fire repeatedly from a fixed location they could adjust shots based upon where they intended the first rocket to land and where it actually went. Even with a weapon as inherently inaccurate as the rockets they are using this would have a big impact on overall accuracy. It certainly _seems_ reasonable to me. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/113 "2014-07-11T19:40:44Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The turning point in this process was the world’s actions immediately prior to the Six Day War in 1967. Israel had more or less counted on world pressure to force the Egyptians to back down - for example, by breaking the Egyptian blockade, or by reinforcing UN peacekeepers in the Sinai. Instead, the opposite happened - no blockade-busting happened, and the UN peacekeepers were ordered withdrawn by Egypt - and they left. I thought the rush from the UN was to stop the war before Israel captured everything. Do I have my wars confused? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/114 "2014-07-11T19:50:32Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I thought the rush from the UN was to stop the war before Israel captured everything. Do I have my wars confused? That was after the war begain. What I’m referring to is the actions of the UN prior to the outbreak of war. Before the war, the UN had “peacekeeping” troops inbetween Israel and Egypt. If those troops stayed in place, no war could occur without one side or other attacking the UN. The Israelis were counting on those troops staying put, as a guarantee of no war. Nasser ordered the UN to leave. Amazingly, they tamely … left. [http://www.sixdaywar.co.uk/un-role.htm](http://www.sixdaywar.co.uk/un-role.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/115 "2014-07-11T19:51:27Z")
> [@Johnny\_Cashless](#): > > On the air strikes, I guess it was time for the periodic rattling of the cage - the very last thing Israel wants is a calm Gaza; that doesn’t serve the agenda at all. I am not sure I understand this. I agree that it doesn’t serve Israel’s interests to have Hamas shooting rockets at them, but that doesn’t seem very calm to me. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/116 "2014-07-11T20:03:51Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > That was after the war begain. What I’m referring to is the actions of the UN prior to the outbreak of war. > > Before the war, the UN had “peacekeeping” troops inbetween Israel and Egypt. If those troops stayed in place, no war could occur without one side or other attacking the UN. > > The Israelis were counting on those troops staying put, as a guarantee of no war. Nasser ordered the UN to leave. Amazingly, they tamely … left. > > [http://www.sixdaywar.co.uk/un-role.htm](http://www.sixdaywar.co.uk/un-role.htm) Thanks, Malthus. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/117 "2014-07-11T21:40:51Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Um, you do realize that both Germany and Japan were forced to surrender unconditionally after WW2 - Japan after being nuked, twice - and the leaders of both countries mostly rounded up and executed in war crimes trials? Yeah, I said they weren’t identical situations? I don’t recall the leaders of Japan being rounded up and executed for war crimes. AFAICT, the imperial family in Japan still occupies the palace. But that’s all besides the point, your distinctions are meaningless to the point I was making. > [@](#): > > Is that really the pattern you want Israel to subscribe to vis. the Palestinians? It is, in fact, way harsher than anything Israel has ever attempted. What pattern is that? Investing several times the local GDP into development of infrastructure while we build a few military bases on their property? Is that really much worse than 60 years of subjugation and occupation? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/118 "2014-07-11T21:57:47Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Right. Sometimes it’s not and sometimes it is. It seems like you are dismissing one of those options out of hand. > [@](#): > > True, but Hamas will have a lot more. Just to be clear, “unilaterally caving” in this case is agreeing to a two state solution or the arab peace initiative. Right? > [@](#): > > You’re saying if you assume the other guy is crazy and bloodthirsty you should change things to give that guy the upper hand? That’s an interesting strategy. No I’m ridiculing people who think that arabs have some sort of genetic predisposition to bloodthirsty insanity. That these guys are pissed off for no discernible reason. I’m saying that if Israel’s inability to reach any sort of reasonable compromise is based on the fact that the Palestinians are all bloodthirsty maniacs then perhaps third parties should work towards shifting power towards the Palestinians. > [@](#): > > What’s the difference? You keep going further and further back in history, which suggests that you see events today based on what you perceive to be historical grievences. But it makes no difference. (You want to go that route, Jews were second class citizens in Palestine and all other Arab countries for hundreds of years.) And in Christian countries too. So how does that justify carving a country out of largely arab land? > [@](#): > > What counts is the current situation. It is this inability to acknowledge the historical context that makes reconciliation so difficult. As far as Israel is concerned, history started the day they were attacked by their arab neighbors. And their treatment of Palestinains are in part justified by a history with arab neighbors who by your own admission don’t have much of a problem with them anymore. I can’t remember the last time Gaza and the West bank invaded Israel. If Israel can turn up their nose at peace with the other arab states because they aren’t “at war” why can’t they make peace with the Palestinians? Perhaps if the Palestinians had the military power of Syria or Egypt, they would be willing to make some compromises to achieve peace. So maybe the secret to peace isn’t a weak Palestinian nation living in squalor but a powerful Palestinian military that has something to lose. Right now, they’ve got nothing to lose, so they strap bombs to their bodies and blow themselves up in Israeli cafes. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/119 "2014-07-11T22:01:55Z")
Is it true that the rockets fired from Gaza are also getting bigger (larger payloads) and have longer ranges? If so, the technological weapons race is just one more troubling facet of the overall problem. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/120 "2014-07-11T22:11:40Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Hamas has killed as many people as they could (other than to the extent that they’ve been pressured into ceasefires by bombings and invasions). > > That seems pretty threatening to me. Making a peace treaty that they don’t subscribe to while leaving them strengthened as a result does not seem like such a bright idea to me. So the only entity that doesn’t want peace is Hamas in Gaza (and even this is ambiguous) and yet the settlers are stealing Palestinian territory in the West bank and Jerusalem. Its like they don’t actually want peace. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=7)