# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/121 "2014-07-11T22:15:21Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > People don’t work that way, especially the people who live in and near the area. > I’d like to give the Palestinians part of Alaska and put in a Ford motor company factory to provide employment. > At least both sides would be out of range of each other. If it was up to me, I would have created Israel between Germany, Austria and Switzerland back in 1945. But its too late for that. Do you think that this hatred predates the Zionist movement? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/122 "2014-07-11T22:20:23Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Is it true that the rockets fired from Gaza are also getting bigger (larger payloads) and have longer ranges? If so, the technological weapons race is just one more troubling facet of the overall problem. I’d read that they are getting some rockets from Syria or Iran that had longer ranges and more effective payloads. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/123 "2014-07-11T22:24:46Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Blood and soil nationalism, eh? :dubious: They have a better claim than the Jews on that particular score, FWIW, and the Jews have never been shy about asserting their own blood-and-soil claim. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/124 "2014-07-11T22:31:36Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah, I said they weren’t identical situations? I don’t recall the leaders of Japan being rounded up and executed for war crimes. [You’re not recalling very well](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Military_Tribunal_for_the_Far_East). > [@](#): > > One defendant, Shūmei Ōkawa, was found mentally unfit for trial and the charges were dropped. > > Two defendants, Matsuoka Yosuke and Nagano Osami, died of natural causes during the trial. > > Six defendants were sentenced to death by hanging for war crimes, crimes against humanity, and crimes against peace (Class A, Class B and Class C): > General Kenji Doihara, chief of the intelligence services in Manchukuo > Kōki Hirota, prime minister (later foreign minister) > General Seishirō Itagaki, war minister > General Heitarō Kimura, commander, Burma Area Army > Lieutenant General Akira Mutō, chief of staff, 14th Area Army > General Hideki Tōjō, commander, Kwantung Army (later prime minister) > > One defendant was sentenced to death by hanging for war crimes and crimes against humanity (Class B and Class C): > General Iwane Matsui, commander, Shanghai Expeditionary Force and Central China Area Army > > Sixteen defendants were sentenced to life imprisonment. Three (Koiso, Shiratori, and Umezu) died in prison, while the other thirteen were paroled between 1954 and 1956: > General Sadao Araki, war minister > Colonel Kingorō Hashimoto, major instigator of the second Sino-Japanese War > Field Marshal Shunroku Hata, war minister > Baron Kiichirō Hiranuma, prime minister > Naoki Hoshino, Chief Cabinet Secretary > Okinori Kaya, finance minister > Marquis Kōichi Kido, Lord Keeper of the Privy Seal > General Kuniaki Koiso, governor of Korea, later prime minister > General Jirō Minami, commander, Kwantung Army > Admiral Takazumi Oka, naval minister > Lieutenant General Hiroshi Ōshima, Ambassador to Germany > General Kenryō Satō, chief of the Military Affairs Bureau > Admiral Shigetarō Shimada, naval minister > Toshio Shiratori, Ambassador to Italy > Lieutenant General Teiichi Suzuki, president of the Cabinet Planning Board > General Yoshijirō Umezu, war minister > > Foreign minister Shigenori Tōgō was sentenced to 20 years imprisonment and died in prison in 1949. Foreign minister Mamoru Shigemitsu was sentenced to 7 years. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/125 "2014-07-11T23:00:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I agree that it doesn’t serve Israel’s interests to have Hamas shooting rockets at them We don’t agree at all. It serves Israel very well indeed. At least while injuries are virtually unknown. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/126 "2014-07-11T23:16:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If it was up to me, I would have created Israel between Germany, Austria and Switzerland back in 1945. But its too late for that. Do you think that this hatred predates the Zionist movement? That would have been a good idea. Jews have always been hated, but Arabs were more than happy to sell Zionists their land. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/127 "2014-07-12T00:16:34Z")
> [@Johnny\_Cashless](#): > > We don’t agree at all. It serves Israel very well indeed. At least while injuries are virtually unknown. How? It’s disruptive to the Israeli economy, it’s upsetting and frightening to the Israeli public, it’s bad for Israel’s image on the international stage, and its just disruptive to daily life. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/128 "2014-07-12T02:21:06Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > I still don’t understand your issue with military strikes against weapons deliberately positioned in civilian populations. My issue is that the strikes kill civilians. Your opinion, I take it, is that it’s Hamas’s fault and so Israel has no moral culpability for those deaths. But even if it’s Hamas’s fault, I don’t think that necessarily makes it the right thing for Israel to do. If, for example, a bank robber takes hostages and is using them as human shields, it’s probably not the right thing for the police to go in guns blazing and kill all the hostages in the process of getting the crooks – even if it is primarily the crooks’ fault for creating the situation. > [@](#): > > I’ve found a [cite](http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-vows-harsher-strikes-on-defiant-hamas-as-conflict-enters-3rd-day/)that states the Israeli military has made 900 strikes with 90 Palestinians killed. Leave aside that at least some of those killed are actual militants (I take it you have fewer issues with non civilian deaths) and lets up the rate x10 (to include injuries) we have a injured/killed per strike ratio of 1. If those numbers are accurate, that is a surprising low number _per strike_, but I’m not sure the per strike number is what it should be judged on. It seems how many total people they killed vs. how much the strikes accomplished is what’s important. I mean, if Israel accomplished the same amount (in terms of preventing Hamas attacks), but it took them 100 times as many strikes, and they killed 100 times as many people, that would clearly be way worse – even though the number killed per strike would be the same. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/129 "2014-07-12T02:31:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Which would be expanded to include the West Bank up to the Green Line (not up to the Wall). > > And then the Gaza Strip can go to Egypt. > > Agreed? Do you think you’re saying something he’d object to? You do realize Netanyahu proposed exactly that in his book don’t you? The “federation” with Jordan has been a proposed solution by right-wing Israelis for decades. You do realize that had you made the above post on the West Bank you’d have put your life in danger don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/130 "2014-07-12T02:40:20Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Israel did, in fact, give them Gaza - a territory Israel used to control (and build settlements in). This has not translated into any noticable increase in world justification for Israeli actions. > > In fact, from what I know of Israelis, they mostly discount the actual impact of world opinion. > > The turning point in this process was the world’s actions immediately prior to the Six Day War in 1967. Israel had more or less counted on world pressure to force the Egyptians to back down - for example, by breaking the Egyptian blockade, or by reinforcing UN peacekeepers in the Sinai. Instead, the opposite happened - no blockade-busting happened, and the UN peacekeepers were ordered withdrawn by Egypt - and they left. And I love that part of history because it confirms my preferred theory of international relations and the only one I feel is meaningfully supported by history: that international relations have and always will be a power game, that collective security is a sham and only applies when States have some genuine and deep self-interest or (importantly) a perceived self-interest in the situation. It was proven very recently in Ukraine, would be proven quite quickly in many other situations as well. The problem I think people like **Damuri Ajashi** and **Ryan Liam** don’t get is there is no reasonable way to create a Palestinian state with a flip of a switch. It only makes sense as part of a graduate process, and Israel has made steps down that process on several occasions–every single time, the Palestinians do something violent to break up the process. The idea that it should be like a light switch is nonsense. A graduate granting of statehood shows continual good will, but instead every time that has happened the moment the Palestianians get enough out from under the thumb to make trouble, they make lots of trouble. I do agree FWIW that the Levant was a bad place, a hell hole infested with ignorant Muslims, to found a Jewish state. But central Europe was certainly no better place to do it, not surrounded by powers that had just been invading each other and killing lots of Jews (the Soviet Union wasn’t a great place for Jews and a central European Jewish state would have been behind the Iron Curtain very quickly.) My preferred scheme (while it sounds fanciful, seriously), the Upper Peninsula of Michigan is one of the least densely populated areas in the United States that isn’t in the great plains/big sky country. It’s 2x the size of Israel, so we could have given the Jews half of it and avoided much trouble. It would solve many of the problems with other proposals. For one, it’d border the U.S. and Canada, both friendly countries (and importantly it wouldn’t be landlocked in the United States or anything like that.) For two, it’d have sea access (the great lakes provide that and there are several genuine sea ports on the great lakes), I see many proposals about central Europe or Siberia that forget being land locked isn’t really a great advantage as a country. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/131 "2014-07-12T02:45:19Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > … those are the reasons that make this the most complex political issue on the planet. But I get the distinct feeling that many in Israel have no interest in reducing even preventable, unnecessary suffering. Can you find me another military that phones the house and advises the people in it to leave it before bombing it? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/132 "2014-07-12T02:47:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There is already a country called Jordan. I think the Palestinians want to call theirs Palestine. But if you want to go back in time to what we could have done differently, perhaps the Zionists shouldn’t have created a country for themselves in the middle of land that was already occupied. Er… You do realize that Jordan is part of Palestine don’t you? You also do realize fought an unsuccessful war to turn Jordan into a Palestinian State don’t you? Can I ask how you can make so many impassioned pleas for the Palestinians yet seem to know so little about them, their culture, their history, or their cause? You really ought to pick up a book or two about the subject, because it really is fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/133 "2014-07-12T02:53:47Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > My preferred scheme (while it sounds fanciful, seriously), the Upper Peninsula of Michigan is one of the least densely populated areas in the United States that isn’t in the great plains/big sky country. It’s 2x the size of Israel, so we could have given the Jews half of it and avoided much trouble. It would solve many of the problems with other proposals. For one, it’d border the U.S. and Canada, both friendly countries (and importantly it wouldn’t be landlocked in the United States or anything like that.) For two, it’d have sea access (the great lakes provide that and there are several genuine sea ports on the great lakes), I see many proposals about central Europe or Siberia that forget being land locked isn’t really a great advantage as a country. So, now that Israel as a country is a reality and that doesn’t seem to be changing anytime soon, are you going to modify this proposal for the Palestinians? If not, what are your objections? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/134 "2014-07-12T02:55:10Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There is already a country called Jordan. I think the Palestinians want to call theirs Palestine. But if you want to go back in time to what we could have done differently, perhaps the Zionists shouldn’t have created a country for themselves in the middle of land that was already occupied. A lot of ignorance here. Zionists bought the land, from its legal owners. When they formed a country, the country is not just a Zionist country, everyone in it, including Arab Muslims have full legal and political rights. People often pretend that when the Jews took over all the Muslims were forced out at gunpoint and denied all civil rights. This is in fact not what happened–but it did happen to historic Jewish populations all over the Middle East after the formation of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/135 "2014-07-12T02:56:08Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > If, for example, a bank robber takes hostages and is using them as human shields, it’s probably not the right thing for the police to go in guns blazing and kill all the hostages in the process of getting the crooks – even if it is primarily the crooks’ fault for creating the situation. These aren’t bank robbers, they’re would-be murderers. If your bank robber had a hostage and was taking pot shots at the police from behind his human shield, the police would be justified in killing him even if they risk hitting the hostage as well. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/136 "2014-07-12T02:56:16Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I do agree FWIW that the Levant was a bad place, a hell hole infested with ignorant Muslims, to found a Jewish state. Making bigoted statements doesn’t help your argument. Leaving aside the fact that there were also huge numbers of Christians in the area, your, since you’re claiming the Palestinian Muslims are “ignorant” perhaps you could answer a question. Most Palestinians speak multiple Arab languages/dialects, Hebrew and English. How many languages other than English do you speak? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/137 "2014-07-12T02:57:52Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > So, now that Israel as a country is a reality and that doesn’t seem to be changing anytime soon, are you going to modify this proposal for the Palestinians? If not, what are your objections? Nope. But I wouldn’t give Israel the UP in 2014 either. So it’s not a valid comparison. In the 1940s I’d have supported the scheme, for Zionists only–there’d have been no need for such a scheme for Arabs as without the Zionist state they’d have no reason to want to or need to be involved in such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/138 "2014-07-12T03:00:04Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But if Israel did that, it could have more of World opinion on its side by saying ‘See we gave them a state, and yet they still attack us’ It would appear more justifiable by making the Palestinian leadership appear even more irrational. “See we withdrew all our troops, removed all our settlers, and not one Jew is present in Gaza now. And the Arabs are using that territory, for years, to shoot rockets into our cities.” Do tell, how well is this argument working today? Does it make Israeli actions “more justifiable” in your eyes? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/139 "2014-07-12T03:04:01Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I do agree FWIW that the Levant was a bad place, a hell hole infested with ignorant Muslims, to found a Jewish state. Except that this area has profound cultural and religious significance to the Jewish people (which I’m not, and have no dog in this race, just saying). Besides the many important historical sites and artifacts, it embodies the very concept of the “promised land” which is one of the central tenets of Zionism. But I agree that the resulting conflict was entirely predictable. All I can say about the present conflict is that Netanyahu is an uncompromising hawk and a different leader might have taken a less hostile stance. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/140 "2014-07-12T03:04:19Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Making bigoted statements doesn’t help your argument. > > Leaving aside the fact that there were also huge numbers of Christians in the area, your, since you’re claiming the Palestinian Muslims are “ignorant” perhaps you could answer a question. > > Most Palestinians speak multiple Arab languages/dialects, Hebrew and English. How many languages other than English do you speak? I speak two other languages. But that’s mostly irrelevant to whether someone is ignorant or not. People that believe in nonsense sky gods, prophets who speak to them, and a host of other nonsense are intrinsically ignorant. King Henry VIII was fluent in three languages and was believed to be somewhat conversant in several more. He wrote music, theological treatises, and poems. But he believed God punished him for marrying his brother’s wife by denying him sons. He also believed a host of other ignorant, fanciful things about everything from biology to the nature of the universe. That made him ignorant–not stupid, and stupid isn’t what I called Muslims. I also called it a hell hole, independently of it being filled with ignorant people. Because it was–it was a shit hole backwater of the Ottoman Empire and the Zionists were about to buy up so much of the land because the residents there were almost all poor and poorly educated people in comparison to the wealthier parts of the Empire where the powerful and rich absentee land lords who owned all the land lived. If the Ottoman Empire had a Mississippi, the region of the Levant that is currently Israel/Palestine would most likely be it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=8)