# airstrikes on Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856 "2014-07-11T14:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/141 "2014-07-12T03:10:14Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I speak two other languages. But that’s mostly irrelevant to whether someone is ignorant or not. People that believe in nonsense sky gods, prophets who speak to them, and a host of other nonsense are intrinsically ignorant. King Henry VIII was fluent in three languages and was believed to be somewhat conversant in several more. He wrote music, theological treatises, and poems. But he believed God punished him for marrying his brother’s wife by denying him sons. He also believed a host of other ignorant, fanciful things about everything from biology to the nature of the universe. > > That made him ignorant–not stupid, and stupid isn’t what I called Muslims. More bigoted nonsense. If that was your belief then why didn’t claim I the same post that Europe was “infested with ignorant Christians”. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/142 "2014-07-12T03:15:12Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > My issue is that the strikes kill civilians. Your opinion, I take it, is that it’s Hamas’s fault and so Israel has no moral culpability for those deaths. But even if it’s Hamas’s fault, I don’t think that necessarily makes it the right thing for Israel to do. If, for example, a bank robber takes hostages and is using them as human shields, it’s probably not the right thing for the police to go in guns blazing and kill all the hostages in the process of getting the crooks – even if it is primarily the crooks’ fault for creating the situation. > > If those numbers are accurate, that is a surprising low number _per strike_, but I’m not sure the per strike number is what it should be judged on. It seems how many total people they killed vs. how much the strikes accomplished is what’s important. I mean, if Israel accomplished the same amount (in terms of preventing Hamas attacks), but it took them 100 times as many strikes, and they killed 100 times as many people, that would clearly be way worse – even though the number killed per strike would be the same. So you’re suggesting that if Hamas had been firing 10,000 rockets (x100 rockets sites) you would find Israeli actions to eliminate each site and resulting in a single death per launcher disproportionate. :dubious: Looks, Hamas governs Gaza and is responsible for the people there. Hamas has chosen to imperil those people through actions they fully understand will not materially change the situation on the ground. The Israeli government has an obligation to defend their citizens from attack and historically it has been by killing Hamas leaders and weapons that lead Hamas to agree to cease fires. In 2008 Hamas sent ~1400 motars and 1700 rockets into Israel and wound up with 1700 dead after a ground invasion by Israel. Maybe they find sacrificing their population in futile gestures more effective than trying to make Gaza a better place to live. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/143 "2014-07-12T03:41:24Z")
How can Hamas gain young recruits? By getting more Palestinians killed by Israel. There’s nothing quite like having one’s family and friends killed to draw youth to a cause. In this respect, Hamas wins recruits even while it costs lives. Israel can’t secure a peace in face of this sort of behaviour, but what it can do is minimize Israeli deaths by killing off Hamas when Hamas attacks, despite such defence having dire long-term consequences. Protecting citizens from immediate attack trumps protecting citizens from possible future attack. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/144 "2014-07-12T04:15:37Z")
Here is a [very good analysis of the situation](http://www.jpost.com/Features/Front-Lines/Middle-Israel-Eyeless-in-Gaza-362332). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/145 "2014-07-12T04:23:21Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > That was a horrible, despicable crime. But I don’t really think these airstrikes make it less likely that such a thing will happen in the future. Do you? I think it has a better chance than not responding. Hamas has never shown any serious interest in a “live and let live” policy. Instead of always insisting that Israel renounce violence, why not start suggesting that Hamas renounce violence? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/146 "2014-07-12T05:00:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > More bigoted nonsense. Yes, because calling a poor area poor is bigoted. So you feel it’s bigoted to call Mississipi a shit hole? > [@](#): > > If that was your belief then why didn’t claim I the same post that Europe was “infested with ignorant Christians”. Why would I have brought up Europe in that post? Why not Asia or Australia if we’re just randomly picking continents unrelated to what I posted in that specific post. But in any case, the more religious an area it is, the more ignorant it is, simple fact. Christian belief is no more or less ignorant than Muslim belief, both are stupid, and wholly ignorant. But fortunately in the Western World most Christian countries are largely secular now and the vast majority of the “Christians” are essentially nonbelievers who haven’t committed to it yet. The Muslim world is far more devout, and thus far more ignorant. Of course even when you remove much of the ignorance associated with religion there’s always plenty left over–see 9/11 Controlled Demolition Theorists, Moon Landing Conspiricists, Fair Trader Advocates and etc for totally areligious ignorance that is rampant to this day. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/147 "2014-07-12T05:34:48Z")
> **[ItemFix - Social Video Factory](https://www.itemfix.com/?r=ll)** > > Social Video Factory Haven’t read through the thread in its entirety, just wanted to post a relevant link. From the above video, it appears the Israelis have shown restraint and good judgement in at least this one instance. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/148 "2014-07-12T05:50:52Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Why would I have brought up Europe in that post? Why not Asia or Australia if we’re just randomly picking continents unrelated to what I posted in that specific post. This comment is jaw-droppingly stupid. Have you forgotten what you actually wrote? In post #130, right after making the racist statement that the Levant was “infested with ignorant Muslims” you then in the very next sentence in the same post brought up Europe, or “central Europe” in particular, but somehow failed to proclaim that it was “infested with ignorant Christians.” > [@](#): > > But fortunately in the Western World most Christian countries are largely secular now and the vast majority of the “Christians” are essentially nonbelievers who haven’t committed to it yet. The Muslim world is far more devout, and thus far more ignorant. Aside from being racist bullshit this is ignorant claptrap. We’re talking about 1948, a point at which radical Islam was hardly the force it was now since Muslims weren’t, at that point being repressed by secular western-backed dictators who’s behavior wound up inadvertently strengthened the hand of the Islamists. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/149 "2014-07-12T08:21:52Z")
Personally, I’d consider blanketing Gaza in luxury goods like chocolate or whatever, all with prominent Israeli-flag logos on them. Then when Hamas tries to crack down because any Israeli generosity they can’t claim to have forced is sure to infuriate them, make sure to record to the maximum extent possible how they beat and kill their own people. It probably won’t help - the people supporting Hamas already know they’re not nice people - but it’s worth a shot. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/150 "2014-07-12T09:02:28Z")
Haven’t they ever heard of turning the other cheek? Sheesh, Israelis are such bad Christians. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/151 "2014-07-12T09:10:15Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Not entirely. There is a principle of proportionality in international law. So while Israel is right to fight back, it can’t do so in whichever way it pleases I mean, yeah sure, poison gas and such is against the international law. But airstrikes seems way within fair game. US considers air strikes against Syria, and they haven’t even attacked US. And is there really a principle of proportionality other than that. Can’t they demand that the government is replaced, or at the very least stops the acts of war. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/152 "2014-07-12T09:14:38Z")
If the elected government of Mexico attacked the US, I rather doubt the US would do nothing about it until it killed a lot of people. I don’t think there would be popular support for that position either. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/153 "2014-07-12T12:52:25Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > If that was your belief then why didn’t claim I the same post that Europe was “infested with ignorant Christians”. The United States surely is. Since we have had civil conversations in the past, I would like to ask a serious question of you. Why are some tiny number of members of Muslims factions willing to kill each other over which family member should have been in charge when Mohammed died? Catholics and Episcopalians don’t kill each other over whether or not the Episcopals retain transubstantiation, although they have in the past. Methodists and Baptists haven’t killed each other over whether or not babies should be baptized. Judaism has some unusual denominations, but the worst I’ve heard is throwing furniture at women, although the people who killed the Palestinian child in revenge were probably Jews. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/154 "2014-07-12T13:53:31Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > How can Hamas gain young recruits? By getting more Palestinians killed by Israel. There’s nothing quite like having one’s family and friends killed to draw youth to a cause. In this respect, Hamas wins recruits even while it costs lives. Yep, for sure. And these are the people who invented (and perpetuated) suicide bombers. Again, killing off their own people to score political points. The sad bit is that it’s effective. The OP of this thread sees Israel killing Palestinians, but not Hamas killing Israelis. The Prime Minister of Israel summed it up neatly: > [@](#): > > The difference between us is simple: We develop missile-defense systems to protect our citizens, while they use their citizens to protect their missiles. And this is what makes all the difference. Hamas locates its missiles and weapons in schools, hospitals, and densly-popuated areas, so that Israeli strikes against military targets are bound to cause civilian deaths. Hamas sees that as good publicity, and (alas) most news agencies fall for that horrible tactic. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/155 "2014-07-12T14:23:53Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > The United States surely is. This is true. Many countries are filled with ignorant Christians and the United States is one of the last major holdouts of deeply religious Christians in the first world (Christian ignorant still runs rampant in many developing countries–generally the more educated and informed a population is of modern science and reality the less religious they are.) > [@](#): > > Why are some tiny number of members of Muslims factions willing to kill each other over which family member should have been in charge when Mohammed died? > > Catholics and Episcopalians don’t kill each other over whether or not the Episcopals retain transubstantiation, although they have in the past. Methodists and Baptists haven’t killed each other over whether or not babies should be baptized. Judaism has some unusual denominations, but the worst I’ve heard is throwing furniture at women, although the people who killed the Palestinian child in revenge were probably Jews. It’s all the same stuff–the fight over this land is no different from what motivated the Christian Crusades. It’s based on nonsense fairy beliefs and conflicts about where magical sky god actions took place and other such trifle. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/156 "2014-07-12T14:29:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > This comment is jaw-droppingly stupid. > > Have you forgotten what you actually wrote? > > In post #130, right after making the racist statement that the Levant was “infested with ignorant Muslims” you then in the very next sentence in the same post brought up Europe, or “central Europe” in particular, but somehow failed to proclaim that it was “infested with ignorant Christians.” Why would I have proclaimed that? Did you not see me explain why Central Europe was unsuitable as the site of a Jewish state? > [@](#): > > Aside from being racist bullshit this is ignorant claptrap. What part of that is racist again? That the portion of the Levant that became Israel is poor and would be the Mississippi of the Ottoman Empire. I’ve grown quite tired of your child reaction to anything that doesn’t show deference to a made up fantasy in the heads of ignorant people. So the only way in which I will treat with you will involve discussion of more specific points. Namely: 1. True/False The Christian first world is much less devout than the Islamic developing world. 2. True/False Belief in Gods and fairy tales as real things makes one ignorant. > [@](#): > > We’re talking about 1948, a point at which radical Islam was hardly the force it was now since Muslims weren’t, at that point being repressed by secular western-backed dictators who’s behavior wound up inadvertently strengthened the hand of the Islamists. Huh? Who said anything about radical Islam? Religion doesn’t have to be radical in the sense of modern day terrorist groups to be ignorant, nor does it have to be radical to lead to conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/157 "2014-07-12T15:15:11Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > Hamas locates its missiles and weapons in schools, hospitals, and densly-popuated areas, so that Israeli strikes against military targets are bound to cause civilian deaths. Hamas sees that as good publicity, and (alas) most news agencies fall for that horrible tactic. Two things; it doesn’t matter where you locate a launch, it’s just a launch - it’s fired and people leave. It’s not a built site. By the time the rocket is properly airbourne there is no one or no infrastructure for Israel to aim at. Second; cite (an independent one)? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/158 "2014-07-12T15:19:48Z")
> [@Johnny\_Cashless](#): > > Two things; it doesn’t matter where you locate a launch, it’s just a launch - it’s fired and people leave. It’s not a built site. By the time the rocket is properly airbourne there is no one or no infrastructure for Israel to aim at. > > Second; cite (an independent one)? My understanding is the Israelis have technology that sometimes enable them to actually shoot at these rocket crews in real time, sometimes before they’ve even fired their rockets. That, combined with the surety of the counterstrike to where the rocket came from gives the crews little time to work on accuracy and other things. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/159 "2014-07-12T15:20:32Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Anyone care to defend Israel here? I’m not sure what the right thing for Israel to do here is, but airstrikes against civilian areas can’t be it. Even just in terms of Israeli interests, I don’t see how they’re helping themselves. Having images of dead Palestinian children on the news just alienates their allies and encourages further attacks. The right thing to do, would be to send in ground troops and occupy Gaza for a period of time, after first making sure that there was a total cordon that no one could escape. Go door to door, bait the Hamas types into firefights, and reduce their stock of weapons, personel, medical supplies. Start pulling out the women and children, leaving military aged males. Accept no surrenders from the Gazan military aged males, until the operation is complete. Once the operation is complete, pull out and leave them to their own devices. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856/160 "2014-07-12T15:23:16Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > My understanding . An independent cite will be easy, I’m sure? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/airstrikes-on-gaza/692856.md?page=9)