# Al-Awlaki Killed **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 30, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158 "2011-09-30T14:51:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/81 "2011-09-30T17:28:00Z")
> [@](#): > > The CIA is often involved in military actions. Perhaps you can use all your fancy military training and book-larnin’ to define “military action” for me, since apparently the “military” part is silent. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/82 "2011-09-30T17:29:14Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I think the one who is wasting time is the person who blathers on about the Constitution and then has no evidence to support any of those things have ever been held to relate to military strikes ever. If they have, please give us the evidence. Until then all you’re doing is being an asshole by trying to make people play your game when you’ve done nothing to support your _assertions_, you are the one making assertions, you are the one that must support them. [This thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=587179&highlight=assassination), [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=579904), and [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=607649&highlight=awlaki). I’ve laid out the caselaw and arguments that support my position. Fortunately, there aren’t many example of US Presidents assassinating US citizens without due process, so there isn’t much caselaw. In WWII, they killed US citizens as spies, but only AFTER giving them a trial by military tribunal. In addition, more recent cases such as Hamdi and Padilla show that simply screaming “AL QAEDA” doesn’t nullify the Constitution. I remain, however, unconvinced by “it’s never been forbidden, so it must be allowed” argument. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/83 "2011-09-30T17:29:24Z")
“Military action” is when the President commands the CIA to do things that are clearly right that only un-American commie fags would dare dispute. Freedom! ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/84 "2011-09-30T17:32:44Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > [This thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=587179&highlight=assassination), [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=579904), and [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=607649&highlight=awlaki). I’ve laid out the caselaw and arguments that support my position. > > Fortunately, there aren’t many example of US Presidents assassinating US citizens without due process, so there isn’t much caselaw. In WWII, they killed US citizens as spies, but only AFTER giving them a trial by military tribunal. In addition, more recent cases such as Hamdi and Padilla show that simply screaming “AL QAEDA” doesn’t nullify the Constitution. > > I remain, however, unconvinced by “it’s never been forbidden, so it must be allowed” argument. No, you are arguing in this thread, please give your cites in this thread. I have no problem digging through cites, I will not dig through three entire threads to collect your cites for you. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/85 "2011-09-30T17:33:00Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > You seem like kind of a pussy. And you seem like kind of an inbred but these points are not really germaine to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/86 "2011-09-30T17:33:51Z")
What an embarrassing comeback. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/87 "2011-09-30T17:35:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Perhaps you can use all your fancy military training and book-larnin’ to define “military action” for me, since apparently the “military” part is silent. I’m not trying to be a dick on this point (or any point.) I can see where your frustration is. The CIA is responsible for intelligence activities in support of national interests around the globe. That means the CIA will sometimes work along with the military on raids, bombings, things of that nature. They were involved in the planning of the OBL mission. No, I don’t believe that makes them part of the formal armed forces. However I do believe it makes their actions military actions. Further, political assassinations have been banned since the Ford Administration. I believe prior to that the President would order the CIA to do them and I believe the select committee on intelligence would approve them as well. Assassinations in the GWOT are strikes against military targets and not political assassinations. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/88 "2011-09-30T17:37:56Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > What an embarrassing comeback. It’s ok, I’ll give you another chance and I promise not to mention it to anyone who you think respects you. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/89 "2011-09-30T17:39:49Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > It’s ok, I’ll give you another chance and I promise not to mention it to anyone who you think respects you. I know you are but what am I, heh. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/90 "2011-09-30T17:44:00Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > No, you are arguing in this thread, please give your cites in this thread. I have no problem digging through cites, I will not dig through three entire threads to collect your cites for you. Well, I’ve given you the 4th Amendment, the Fifth Amendment, the due process clause. You can include In re TERRORIST BOMBINGS OF U.S. EMBASSIES IN EAST AFRICA (Fourth Amendment Challenges), Reid v. Covert, In Re Quirin, Rumsfeld v. Padilla, Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, the Steel Seizure cases, and Tennessee v. Garner. I get your point, that no court has ever specifically ruled that the President order the extrajudicial killing of a US citizen. But you’re simply ignoring all the caselaw and arguments I have made and simply repeating the same thing over and over (MILITARY STRIKE!!!). I sense this is par for the course with you. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/91 "2011-09-30T17:45:39Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Well, I’ve given you the 4th Amendment, the Fifth Amendment, the due process clause. You can include In re TERRORIST BOMBINGS OF U.S. EMBASSIES IN EAST AFRICA (Fourth Amendment Challenges), Reid v. Covert, In Re Quirin, Rumsfeld v. Padilla, Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, the Steel Seizure cases, and Tennessee v. Garner. > > I get your point, that no court has ever specifically ruled that the President order the extrajudicial killing of a US citizen. But you’re simply ignoring all the caselaw and arguments I made and simply repeating the same thing over and over. I sense this is par for the course with you. Let’s cite World War II then. Did FDR have to get approval before any of his specific military acts? You’re talking about civil law and trying to argue all these precedents apply to military actions directed against a military enemy. I don’t see why you fail to understand the fundamental difference. You’re surely aware the SCOTUS is very careful not to directly interfere with a President’s ability to wage a war that has been authorized by Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/92 "2011-09-30T17:46:39Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’m not trying to be a dick on this point (or any point.) I can see where your frustration is. The CIA is responsible for intelligence activities in support of national interests around the globe. That means the CIA will sometimes work along with the military on raids, bombings, things of that nature. They were involved in the planning of the OBL mission. > > No, I don’t believe that makes them part of the formal armed forces. However I do believe it makes their actions military actions. > > Further, political assassinations have been banned since the Ford Administration. I believe prior to that the President would order the CIA to do them and I believe the select committee on intelligence would approve them as well. > > Assassinations in the GWOT are strikes against military targets and not political assassinations. Okay, now we’re getting somewhere. Let me ask you this: are all CIA offensive actions military? Why is it necessary to involve a non-military entity in the _execution_ of military strikes? What’s wrong with the identical drones operated by the Air Force? How does one distinguish between a strike against a military target who happens to be a civilian and a political assassination? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/93 "2011-09-30T17:49:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Okay, now we’re getting somewhere. > > Let me ask you this: are all CIA offensive actions military? Why is it necessary to involve a non-military entity in the _execution_ of military strikes? What’s wrong with the identical drones operated by the Air Force? How does one distinguish between a strike against a military target who happens to be a civilian and a political assassination? Legally there are no political assassinations, they have been prohibited since the Ford administration. I don’t know anything about intelligence ops or the operational decisions that lead to the CIA being involved in things. I know that during the Cold War the CIA had a hand in insurgencies against the Soviets/Communists all over the world, and that sometimes involved direct engagements. I don’t know how thing get divvied up. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/94 "2011-09-30T17:55:58Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Let’s cite World War II then. I did. The President had US citizen killed as a spy only AFTER giving him a trial by military tribunal and appeals in the federal court. That was the only targeted killing of a US citizen outside of the battlefield that I found. > [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Did FDR have to get approval before any of his specific military acts? You’re talking about civil law and trying to argue all these precedents apply to military actions directed against a military enemy. I don’t see why you fail to understand the fundamental difference. Again, the 4th Amendment, the 5th Amendment, and the due process clause do not say “does not apply if done by the military”. The AUMF is not a “get out of Constitution free” card that allows the President to do as he wishes. We learned that only after the prior President used it to detain, without trial, US citizens, and had to be reminded by SCOTUS that he can’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/95 "2011-09-30T17:56:59Z")
Wait–so _al-Qaida Magazine_ has an editorial job opening, then? Is it listed on [Mediabistro.com](http://Mediabistro.com) yet? [_brushes up resume_] ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/96 "2011-09-30T18:03:12Z")
Coming into the thread to link to [this substantive post](http://volokh.com/2011/09/30/anwar-al-aulaqi-apparently-killed-by-drone-in-yemen/) at The Volokh Conspiracy discussing the Al-Awalki assassination. For those who don’t know, Volokh is a blog filled with law professors discussing, well, the law. I thought their insights might be interesting to you all. FWIW, as an American citizen, I’m very troubled by the idea that the U.S. President now has the right to order the death of an American citizen with very little in the way of due process or appeal or oversight. I have no problem with indicting Al-Awalki, trying him in absentia (I’m aware that _Crosby_ prohibits such trials for the moment) and then either trying to capture him or, if need be, kill him. But jump through the process first. Wiping away the due process issues by claiming they’re unnecessary in a military operation, is a gigantic end around the Amendments that **Hamlet** cited. Reading the discussion at Volokh, I don’t see anything standing in the way of **Hamlet** ’s “Navy Seals in Miami” hypothetical, should the hypothetical AQ member be uncaptureable by the local sovereign. My money is on it being used on members of the militia movement, should there be a resurgence of the militia hysteria in the next 20 years, or, God forbid, another mass casualty attack in the U.S. If the precedent of the Al-Awalki killing doesn’t bother you, it should. When applied to the activities and reach of government, the slippery slope isn’t a fallacy. It’s real. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/97 "2011-09-30T18:03:48Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I did. The President had US citizen killed as a spy only AFTER giving him a trial by military tribunal and appeals in the federal court. That’s a criminal court matter…nothing to do with the use of military force against an enemy. > [@](#): > > That was the only targeted killing of a US citizen outside of the battlefield that I found. Again, the 4th Amendment, the 5th Amendment, and the due process clause do not say “does not apply if done by the military”. The AUMF is not a “get out of Constitution free” card that allows the President to do as he wishes. We learned that only after the prior President used it to detain, without trial, US citizens, and had to be reminded by SCOTUS that he can’t do that. This was a targeted killing of an enemy military asset. Allowing the military to strike at those is not an end run around the Constitution, but how the Constitution has worked for 220+ years. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/98 "2011-09-30T18:05:47Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Coming into the thread to link to [this substantive post](http://volokh.com/2011/09/30/anwar-al-aulaqi-apparently-killed-by-drone-in-yemen/) at The Volokh Conspiracy discussing the Al-Awalki assassination. For those who don’t know, Volokh is a blog filled with law professors discussing, well, the law. I thought their insights might be interesting to you all. > > FWIW, as an American citizen, I’m very troubled by the idea that the U.S. President now has the right to order the death of an American citizen with very little in the way of due process or appeal or oversight. I have no problem with indicting Al-Awalki, trying him in absentia (I’m aware that _Crosby_ prohibits such trials for the moment) and then either trying to capture him or, if need be, kill him. But jump through the process first. Wiping away the due process issues by claiming they’re unnecessary in a military operation, is a gigantic end around the Amendments that **Hamlet** cited. > > Reading the discussion at Volokh, I don’t see anything standing in the way of **Hamlet** ’s “Navy Seals in Miami” hypothetical, should the hypothetical AQ member be uncaptureable by the local sovereign. My money is on it being used on members of the militia movement, should there be a resurgence of the militia hysteria in the next 20 years, or, God forbid, another mass casualty attack in the U.S. > > If the precedent of the Al-Awalki killing doesn’t bother you, it should. When applied to the activities and reach of government, the slippery slope isn’t a fallacy. It’s real. No, it shouldn’t bother me. The President has been granted the right to use force against the enemy. One of the specific enemies mentioned in the AUMF is “the organizations responsible for the attacks on 9/11/01.” Al-Qaeda is most certainly one of those organizations, we struck at Al-Qaeda, that is a valid military act. I do not doubt that our court system would address “Navy SEALS in Miami” when it actually happens. I would not suggest holding your breath waiting for it. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/99 "2011-09-30T18:07:35Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > This was a targeted killing of an enemy military asset. How do you know he was an enemy military asset? Where’s the proof? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/100 "2011-09-30T18:09:11Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > I know you are but what am I, heh. I am undone…I am trapped in the vortex of your powerful logicks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158.md?page=6)