# Al-Awlaki Killed **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 30, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158 "2011-09-30T14:51:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/141 "2011-09-30T19:24:38Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > _Hamdi_ says they do apply, doesn’t it? I don’t think Hamdi dealt with executions. But the point I’m making is killing someone on the battlefield isn’t the same as an execution. In the case of an English monarch, the law was different when he was suppressing insurrectionist noblemen versus when he was just wanting to have them beheaded for plotting against him. In the latter they had to have some pretense of law. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/142 "2011-09-30T19:27:10Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Why did the US conduct legal proceedings against Khalid Sheikh Mohammed when they could have just let him rot in Guantanamo? Well, it was the result of a SCOTUS decision. KSM was not in the same boat as al-Awlaki because he was on no battlefield. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/143 "2011-09-30T19:28:11Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > A man posting videos to YouTube is not “waging active war” against the United States. The President / military does not have to prove _to you_ someone is part of al-Qaeda, never in history has the military had to “prove” someone was part of the enemy before killing them _on the battlefield_. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/144 "2011-09-30T19:29:36Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Well, it was the result of a SCOTUS decision. KSM was not in the same boat as al-Awlaki because he was on no battlefield. But there are other detainees at Guantanamo not being given civilian trials. Why should KSM get a trial but not these other detainees? What’s the basis for this discrepancy? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/145 "2011-09-30T19:33:58Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Well, part of it I think is we’re talking about stuff that just wouldn’t happen. As I said to John Mace: “If you were to ask me 11 years ago whether a US President would order the killing of a US citizen on US soil, I would have agreed with you. But after 9/11, Padilla, Hamdi, Hamdan, Guantanamo, and now Al Awlaki (by the very President who was so damn against the prior stuff when running for the position), I’m nowhere near as sure.” I don’t think it will ever happen (in part because I think the President knows that he would be violating the Constitution to do so), but I sure wish I was more sure. > [@Martin Hyde](#): > > I do think that technically, since the President can indeed wage war against the enemy, if the enemy happens to be within our borders, he can wage war there. Waging war involves things like missile strikes, drone strikes, tanks, infantry, attack helicopters, the whole kit and caboodle. And sending in Navy Seals to kill/capture people he considers enemy. I > [@Martin Hyde](#): > > If a column of Canadian armor came storming across the border with Vermont, lead by a renegade American Army captain I don’t necessarily think most people would be shocked if Obama launched a bunch of attack helicopters to tear them up from above. There would be no expectation the renegade captain be tried in absentia first, or given any special consideration because at that moment in time he would be a military asset. _sigh_ Yes, because it would be on the battlefield. But if Obama ordered the CIA to kill a US citizen in Miami because he was a member of Al Qaeda, you can be damned sure the courts wouldn’t allow it. > [@Martin Hyde](#): > > We have to talk about such crazy scenarios because the reality is, the waging of war on American soil is a far out scenario, it just wouldn’t happen. I know you want to limit the idea of “military action” to simply drone attacks, etc. But the fact is the AUMF authorizes the President to take any action deemed appropriate, which would include assassination of US citizens on US soil. > [@Martin Hyde](#): > > I think we both agree he wouldn’t be prosecuted, but I was hoping if you felt he genuinely broke a law, what specific law he broke. The most likely would be the same ones the officers in the Rodney King beating (Section 1983?) ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/146 "2011-09-30T19:34:06Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The President / military does not have to prove _to you_ someone is part of al-Qaeda, never in history has the military had to “prove” someone was part of the enemy before killing them _on the battlefield_. So as part of the Global War on Terror, it would be perfectly legal for the US to kill the president of Yemen? He’s in Yemen, that’s a battlefield! ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/147 "2011-09-30T19:35:48Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I don’t think Hamdi dealt with executions. But the point I’m making is killing someone on the battlefield isn’t the same as an execution. In the case of an English monarch, the law was different when he was suppressing insurrectionist noblemen versus when he was just wanting to have them beheaded for plotting against him. In the latter they had to have some pretense of law. You can draw whatever distinctions you like, since Hamdi and al-Awlaki will both end up on the same side of the line. And in _Hamdi_, the constitutional balancing of the right not to be detained with the exigencies of your active war was held to require some process. If you ramp up the liberty interest from bodily freedom to freedom of life, how do you end up with less process? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/148 "2011-09-30T19:37:01Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Also, is that really as odd as you’d think? Yes, it is. Seizing someone and detaining them - unconstitutional. Killing them - constitutional. I think a vast majority of people would much rather be detained than killed. Also, I see no difference in the Constitution that would support the idea that killing is fine, but detention isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/149 "2011-09-30T19:39:38Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > So as part of the Global War on Terror, it would be perfectly legal for the US to kill the president of Yemen? > > He’s in Yemen, that’s a battlefield! He might be back in Yemen now, but for the last couple of months he wasn’t. I leave it to you to look up the reason. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/150 "2011-09-30T19:40:52Z")
So once again, what is “the battlefield” and was Osama Bin Laden killed on it? ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/151 "2011-09-30T19:41:50Z")
What process is due to Anwar al-aulaqi? I think this needs to be established before we can decide whether or not it’s been violated in this instance. This is what we know: he is/was on a targeted killing list (in 2010). He could have removed himself from that list by surrendering. He did not surrender nor made any attempts to surrender. He is/was located in a territory in Yemen that is beyond any governmental control (civilian, not the military). Alleged by DNI Director James Clapper ([Clapper Declaration](http://www.fas.org/sgp/jud/statesec/aulaqi-clapper-092510.pdf)): > [@](#): > > Anwar al-Aulaqi is a leader of AQAP, a Yemen-based terrorist group that has claimed responsibility for numerous terrorist acts against Saudi, Korean, Yemeni, and U.S. targets since January 2009. Id. ¶ 13. > > - Anwar al-Aulaqi has pledged an oath of loyalty to AQAP emir, Nasir al-Wahishi, and is playing a key role in setting the strategic direction for AQAP. Id. ¶ 14. > > - Anwar al-Aulaqi has also recruited individuals to join AQAP, facilitated training at camps in Yemen in support of acts of terrorism, and helped focus AQAP’s attention on planning attacks on U.S. interests. Id. ¶ 14. > > - Since late 2009, Anwar al-Aulaqi has taken on an increasingly operational role in the group, including preparing Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, who received instructions from Anwar Al–Aulaqi to detonate an explosive device aboard a U.S. airplane over U.S. airspace and thereafter attempted to do so aboard a Northwest Airlines flight from Amsterdam to Detroit on Christmas Day 2009, for his operation. Id. ¶ 15. > … > > On May 23, 2010, the official media arm of AQAP, al Malahim Media Production, posted a 45-minute video of what is described as an interview with Anwar al-Aulaqi. In the video, the interviewee, whom the Intelligence Community assesses is Anwar al-Aulaqi, calls for jihad against America, praises the actions of Fort Hood shooter Major Nidal Hasan and Christmas Day bomber Umar Farouk Adbulmutallab, and justifies the killing of u.s. civilians, including children. He also states that he is not a fugitive and declares he has no intention of turning himself in to America. His increasing “operational role” is what led to his combatant status determination under the 2001 AUMF that allows enemies to be killed as a matter of first resort - Congress passed this. Thus, he was not killed solely (or at all) because of youtube videos. The President determines who the enemy should be. This is justified under International Humanitarian Law/Law of Armed Conflict/Laws of War. Thus, he is due whatever process is afforded to him under those laws…or, he is due the opportunity to surrender to the people trying to kill him. He chose not to. I don’t necessarily agree with this, and think Congress should change the process due to these “enemies.” However, they have not done so at this time. I further disagree we should treat these enemies as criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/152 "2011-09-30T19:43:37Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So once again, what is “the battlefield” and was Osama Bin Laden killed on it? Nobody fucking knows, and no. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/153 "2011-09-30T19:49:16Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Nobody fucking knows, and no. If “nobody fucking knows” what constitutes “the battlefield” how do we know Osama WASN’T killed on it? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/154 "2011-09-30T19:50:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > He might be back in Yemen now, but for the last couple of months he wasn’t. I leave it to you to look up the reason. What are you trying to say, Marley? That the Arab Spring is a terrorist movement? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/155 "2011-09-30T19:51:34Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > If “nobody fucking knows” what constitutes “the battlefield” how do we know Osama WASN’T killed on it? I don’t know what point you think you’re making, but under the AUMF, the entire world is potentially a battlefield, and everyone is potentially a combatant. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/156 "2011-09-30T19:51:36Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So once again, what is “the battlefield” and was Osama Bin Laden killed on it? By definition, he was killed during an “Armed Conflict.” Otherwise, his killing would have been illegal. I’m not sure how you define “battlefield”, though. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/157 "2011-09-30T19:53:56Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > If “nobody fucking knows” what constitutes “the battlefield” how do we know Osama WASN’T killed on it? You’ve got it now! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/158 "2011-09-30T19:55:50Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > What are you trying to say, Marley? That the Arab Spring is a terrorist movement? That’s my mistake; I forgot AQ wasn’t behind the attack that almost killed Saleh. Let’s return to our discussion of why the government killed the leave Britney alone guy when all he was doing was making YouTube videos. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/159 "2011-09-30T19:59:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s my mistake; I forgot AQ wasn’t behind the attack that almost killed Saleh. Let’s return to our discussion of why the government killed the leave Britney alone guy when all he was doing was making YouTube videos. Don’t get your lace panties in a bunch. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158/160 "2011-09-30T20:00:21Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Don’t get your lace panties in a bunch. Sorry, I forgot you’re the sole arbiter of what’s true and what isn’t. Because you said you are, you see. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-awlaki-killed/598158.md?page=9)