# Al Franken lied **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 28, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350 "2003-09-28T20:12:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350/61 "2003-09-30T14:21:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by aaslatten \* > \*\*slight highjack: Why are the two most prominent “liberal” pundits being discussed these days (Al Franken and Michael Moore) basically humorists? \*\* Try _Big Lies: The Right-Wing Propaganda Machine and How It Distorts the Truth_ by Joe Conason. I’m about half way through it and it’s pretty good so far. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350/62 "2003-09-30T14:40:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Nah. I’ve joined the school of asking questions. That’s why I asked him one. Sometimes a question is a statement, but sometimes it’s just a question. \*\* Fair enough. I s’pose i’ve just become accustomed to this question being followed by accusations of “Democratic hypocrisy” or something similar, even when that is totally irrelevant to the debate. It’s worth reminding _some_ people on these Boards that there is not (yet) a law in American that says you have to be a Democrat or a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350/63 "2003-09-30T17:10:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > \*\ ***Attrayant** , can you summarize what Franken says about the error? \*\* Eh, it’s only a paragraph. Here tis: > [@](#): > > Actually, I do take great pains in my research. In my last book of this nature, a little number one _New York Times_ best-seller entitled _Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot and Other Observations_, only one claim was arguably inaccurate, and I am pleased to be the first person to point it out publicly. In writing the book, I cited preliminary findings from a study by Kathleen Hall Jamieson regarding the political literacy of radio talk show listeners. In the final version of the study, the findings showed that people who listened regularly to political talk radio were able to identify the President more frequently than I had given them credit for. I regret the error. I seem to recall that in _Lies…_ he again cites results from a preliminary study, but I could be wrong. I’m not about to dig through it to find out. Pretty good book, though (although unfunny in some parts, particularly the Chickenhawk bit. That would have had more oomphf had Franken been in Vietnam, too.) Is there a thread out there devoted to his newest book? Quix ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350/64 "2003-09-30T17:19:55Z")
> [@](#): > > - originally posted by aaslatten\* > **Why are the two most prominent “liberal” pundits being discussed these days (Al Franken and Michael Moore) basically humorists?** Good question, but one for which I have no answer. Maybe the scorched-earth tactics of the “far right” have compelled serious “lefties” to stay in their ivory bunkers. It would be preferable that the inanities spewed by some conservatives be refuted by serious scholars. But since that isn’t happening, thank God (Allah, Zeus, Frannie, whomever) for Al Franken! Though maybe we don’t need the hotshots, since Franken is not only funny but dead on with his facts. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350/65 "2003-09-30T18:18:28Z")
Thanks **quixotic78** ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350/66 "2003-09-30T19:15:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Merijeek \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > > I don’t recall Bill Clinton snubbing the UN or starting a war over Monica Lewinsky, do you? > > Remember, he fired some cruise missiles at facilities being used by some guy named Bin-Madden or something. > > I seem to remember he got accused of trying to distract everyone from the Monica thing by wagging the dog. So, it’s Clinton’s fault for not taking care of Bin Laden before 9/11/2001, and it’s Clintons’ fault for playing “wag the dog” when he tried to take action against Bin Laden? What is this, the Karl Rove School of Choplogic? And in any event, I don’t think a handful of cruise missiles is the same as stationing 180,000+ troops and starting a war. Unless I was napping when Madelyne Albright went before the UN and told horror stories about Saddam’s mobile weapons labs and remote-controlled drone planes… ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350/67 "2003-09-30T19:33:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by aaslatten \* > slight highjack: Why are the two most prominent “liberal” pundits being discussed these days (Al Franken and Michael Moore) basically humorists? Because “conservative humorist” is an oxymoron? 😃 (cf: Rush Limbaugh, _Mallard Filmore,_ etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350/68 "2003-09-30T22:00:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MaxTheVool \* > \*\*OK, next, **Scylla** , you say that he lied about what “ditto” means. Can you be more specific? \*\* It’s in that same thread I linked to. Franken says “Ditto” is this big self-aggrandizing thing that Rush does, when it’s really just shorthand. You’ll find how Franken describes ditto in those first pages of the book available on line. Franken also mentions that he didn’t actually listen to the show because he didn’t stand it, but says he’s not going to let that stop him from writing his book about it. As I said, it seems toungue and cheek to me. It scares me that somebody would read the book as a serious tome of information to be relied on. BTW, it’s pretty cool that Franken addressed his error in the second book. Is he attempting to be much more serious in that second book? Frankly, the humor’s not to my style. There’s a review on the amazon page to his second book that says it all: [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0525947647/qid=1064959556/sr=2-1/ref=sr\_2\_1/104-6691426-0338352](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0525947647/qid=1064959556/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-6691426-0338352) Actually here: > **[Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: Franken, Al: 9780141886886: Amazon.com:...](https://www.amazon.com/Lies-Lying-Liars-Balanced-Right/dp/0452285216)** > > Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them \[Franken, Al\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them (lot of reviews) > [@](#): > > I wrote the same review for Coulter’s book, September 30, 2003 > Reviewer: nickdg (see more about me) from New York, NY United States > This book, much like Ann Coulter’s inane “Treason”, is part of the growing uncivility in today’s political discourse. Instead of making logical arguments about improving Americans’ daily lives, these pundits on both sides of the aisle focus on vicious personal attacks. It is a testament to their uselesness that none of these books actually contain prescriptions to IMPROVE the average person’s life. > > It is easy to debase other people and to find flaws in other’s positions and arguments but much harder to find solutions. From now on, I will only read political books that contain ideas/suggestions instead of the usual bile. ---
**Author:** ![pokey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ebca7d/32.png) [@pokey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pokey)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350/69 "2003-10-01T03:32:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Slacker \* > \*\*Try _Big Lies: The Right-Wing Propaganda Machine and How It Distorts the Truth_ by Joe Conason. I’m about half way through it and it’s pretty good so far. \*\* Hmmm sounds good. Amazon review raves, “wittier than Noam Chomsky!” ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350/70 "2003-10-01T13:10:27Z")
Franken’s book is political satire, not humor. There is a big difference. I expect his book was “fact checked” pretty well prior to publication. What I don’t understand is the lawsuit - who accomplished what beyond good publicity for the book? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350/71 "2003-10-01T13:35:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*Because “conservative humorist” is an oxymoron? 😃 \*\* Read P.J O’Rourke or Florence King and get back to us. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350/72 "2003-10-01T14:50:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > \*\*Read P.J O’Rourke or Florence King and get back to us. \*\* I was about to recommend O’Rourke myself, and i’m a raving lefty. Even if i don’t agree with all of his politics, some of his stuff is side-splitting. I think Parliament of Whores might be my favorite, although a couple of others come close. I should add that, having read every book he’s ever written, and many of his essays from magazines etc., i’m finding that as he gets older, he’s getting more conservative and less funny. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350/73 "2003-10-01T18:01:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mhendo \* > \*\* > I should add that, having read every book he’s ever written, and many of his essays from magazines etc., i’m finding that as he gets older, he’s getting more conservative and less funny. \*\* Try taking a gander at his latest, _The CEO at the Breakfast Table_, or something like that. You will find that he has ceased to be even mildly amusing. Now he is just a short, grumpy, middle aged guy from Toledo. I wonder if losing his patron, Mr. Forbes, has something to do with his decline from humor and sharp observation to shrillness and an apparent serious hard on for Senator Clinton? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350/74 "2003-10-01T19:14:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*It’s in that same thread I linked to. Franken says “Ditto” is this big self-aggrandizing thing that Rush does, when it’s really just shorthand. > > You’ll find how Franken describes ditto in those first pages of the book available on line.\*\* “When it’s really just shorthand”? You lost me… \*\* > [@](#): > > Franken also mentions that he didn’t actually listen to the show because he didn’t stand it, but says he’s not going to let that stop him from writing his book about it. > \*\* I read about half of a friend’s copy of _Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot_ about a year ago, and I seem to recall that he listened to Rush’s show a whole bunch (every day for several months, or something along those lines) while writing the book. But I might be getting him confused with someone else. Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350/75 "2003-10-01T20:18:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MaxTheVool \* > \*\*“When it’s really just shorthand”? > > You lost me… \*\* “Ditto” is supposed to mean “I agree with the previous caller’s comments about you.” “Ditto” is not supposed to mean “I agree with you.” It’s an attempt to stop the incessant, “Oh, Rush, I just love you and listen to you every day…” that always seems to start calls. Julie ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350/76 "2003-10-01T20:19:57Z")
I assume that **Scylla** ’s characterizations refer to _Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot_, because Amazon doesn’t show any preview pages for _Lies:_. I’m not aware that Franken characterized “ditto” as “self-aggrandizing,” nor as something that Limbaugh does – it’s something his fans do, “gleefully,” and I agree with that characterization. The “I couldn’t stand listening to the show, but I won’t let that stop me,” is, I think, part of the conceit of the book; part of the parody, aimed at those conservatives who criticize, boycott, and agitate against books, movies, and TV shows sight-unseen – they “won’t look at that trash.” Instead, so Franken says, he makes his assistant listen to the show. I’m not sure the assistant exists, but either way, Franken sure had a lot of Limbaugh quotes in the book for someone who “never listened to it.” ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350/77 "2003-10-01T20:25:56Z")
BTW, does anyone else see this thread title and think “Alfrankenlied? Is that one of Wagner’s less-known works?” ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350/78 "2003-10-01T21:52:52Z")
I don’t know any Wagner work less famous than _Hart to Hart_. 😃 And in _Lies_, Franken does admit to listening to Rush’s show a lot in preparation for that book, which is why he doesn’t listen to him much anymore, so I suspect that _Rush_ quote was a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350/79 "2003-10-02T02:43:41Z")
Ok. I’m at the Amazon site for Rush’s first book. In the preview pages there’s a book review: -According to the review Franken offers no evidence that Rush Limbaugh is fat and contradicts himself calling rush alternately 300 pounds and 600 pounds. That fact is Rush is not fat (but I guess at the time the book was out,) -Apparently while discussing the Bell Curve Franke quotes the authors Murrary and Herrnstein as saying that Jazz is “Music created by morons.” Nowwhere in that 800 page book do they say that. -On preview page 6 Franken Franken says “These are the fans who voluntarily-hell, gleefully call themselves “dittoheads” in honor of their ability to blindly and uncritically agree with everything that comes out of Limbaugh’s mouth.” As has been previously note this is not at all what ditto or dittohead means, and is really a big error for somebody who claims enough knowledge of the show to write critically. -On preview page 12 Franken goes on about the study already described. One can look at this preliminary study results cited by Franken and see how the differ from the actual results and decide for themselves whether it is credible that it is an honest mistake -Oh and according to the review Franken says that is not an idiot (which is at odds with previous Franken statements.) -Let’s see, he admits to a series of bald-faced lies in calling up political commentators under false pretenses (forgot which page, they take long to load so I’m not going back again.) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350/80 "2003-10-02T15:34:01Z")
Umm **Scylla** , isn’t that book review at the beginning of the AMAZON preview a put on? Jeane Kirkpatrick? Then Franken claims they were lovers in his editorial reply? I thought the “review” was to make fun of people who would (deliberately or not) be wooshed. Heh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-franken-lied/204350.md?page=5)